Harper??????

[eclipse1966]

we should all be concerned. If you google more you will find out that the Chinese are already suing a Belgium bank investment and the US government for not allowing them to place windmills for power near a military training facility in Oregon.

Did it. Holy crap that's a complicated document to read! I'm concerned now. Not concerned enough to vote for Trudeau or that other clown next time....but concerned.

 

[moyiesledhead]

Why are we doing business with a communist country ??

Simple economics. Because they have the only economy other than ours in the world that isn't in the crapper, and ours would be too if we weren't exporting to them right now. The industry I'm in (not oil) is exporting fully 70% of production to China right now. If it wasn't for them I dare say I wouldn't be working.

 

[moyiesledhead]

we should all be concerned. If you google more you will find out that the Chinese are already suing a Belgium bank investment and the US government for not allowing them to place windmills for power near a military training facility in Oregon.

Haven't seen the windmill thing, but the Belgium government actually did some pretty shady stuff to precipitate the banking law suit. I might just support China on that one. Still reading.

 

[moyiesledhead]

OK, here's what I read about the 2 issues above. From the Globe and mail:

"In the U.S., Chinese-owned Ralls Corp. is suing President Barack Obama and his government for blocking the acquisition of a wind farm over national security concerns. In Europe, China’s second-largest insurer, Ping An Insurance Group, has launched a $2-billion arbitration claim against the Belgian government over the expropriation of a Belgian-Dutch bank in which it had invested."

I suspect the Belgian one was expropriation without compensation. That seems to be the European model right now. I'd be suing them too! As far as the wind farm goes....big difference between not allowing them to install a windfarm, and blocking the purchase of one that's already there. I still wouldn't sell it to them over national security issues being near a military base, but it probably shouldn't negate their right to sue if they feel wronged. No lawsuit should be carried out in private though as the Canada-China FIPA seems to allow!

 

[eclipse1966]

tks for the info. I am not so concerned about weather or not the Chinese are justified to sue but I am more concerned with the method they can. I got this off the net which explains it and is what is alarming.

CL: I guess I’ll just jump right in. The first question I have regards Canada’s sovereignty over its resources when it engages in these kinds of transactions with state-owned enterprises. Could you talk about Canada’s ability to maintain its sovereignty over the tar sands with this potential Chinese acquisition of Nexen under the Canada-China investment deal?

GVH: Okay, so when we talk about sovereignty, the way a country exercises sovereignty over its territory is by being able to pass laws and enact regulations that apply to companies and anyone else operating in its territory. And if there are any disputes about the laws or the regulations, then those get decided in the courts of the country.
What’s really different about the China-Canada investment deal - although it tracks especially NAFTA in Canada's case, although NAFTA obviously relates to American investors - is that it allows disputes about how laws and regulations or even court decisions have been made, to be decided outside of the Canadian courts. So they’re decided by international arbitrators at the option of the investor…and the China-Canada investment deal and many of these other investment treaties … give the power, and quite immense power, to the investor to challenge any decision that Canada would make, whether by the Canadian Parliament, or a provincial legislature, by the Supreme Court of Canada or a lower court, or by Cabinet or some low-level government official. Anything can be challenged by skipping Canadian courts and going straight to these international arbitrators.
And the international arbitration process, for a number of reasons, is really, I would say, without wishing to make personal allegations about any of the arbitrators, objectively slanted in favour of the investors. That’s not unique to the China-Canada deal. But what is unique is that this is the first time since NAFTA that Canada is entering into a deal that allows for these kinds of lawsuits with a country that is likely to have investors that own a lot of assets in Canada. Okay? You get my drift?

OK, here's what I read about the 2 issues above. From the Globe and mail:

"In the U.S., Chinese-owned Ralls Corp. is suing President Barack Obama and his government for blocking the acquisition of a wind farm over national security concerns. In Europe, China’s second-largest insurer, Ping An Insurance Group, has launched a $2-billion arbitration claim against the Belgian government over the expropriation of a Belgian-Dutch bank in which it had invested."

I suspect the Belgian one was expropriation without compensation. That seems to be the European model right now. I'd be suing them too! As far as the wind farm goes....big difference between not allowing them to install a windfarm, and blocking the purchase of one that's already there. I still wouldn't sell it to them over national security issues being near a military base, but it probably shouldn't negate their right to sue if they feel wronged. No lawsuit should be carried out in private though as the Canada-China FIPA seems to allow!

 

[moyiesledhead]

Yup, that's pretty much what I got out of reading the actual agreement text. Pretty scary stuff!

 

[Mike270412]

I'm studying Mandarin and Cantonese.That way when they take over I will be one step ahead of the rest of you fawkers.

 

[SledMamma]

Simple economics. Because they have the only economy other than ours in the world that isn't in the crapper, and ours would be too if we weren't exporting to them right now. The industry I'm in (not oil) is exporting fully 70% of production to China right now. If it wasn't for them I dare say I wouldn't be working.

So do business, but don't give away the farm...

 

[moyiesledhead]

So do business, but don't give away the farm...

Exactly. We need trade with China to survive right now....I just don't think this agreement is the way to do it now that I've read it. Good for putting money in big business pockets though. What do they care what happens after that?

 

[eclipse1966]

its not just money but we also have environmental and social issues to be concerned about as well. I have mentioned this before in other threads but I have been to China a few times for business related issues (I used to work for a Japanese trading company) and what I saw and experienced in China makes me really concerned for our country. Basically screw the people and environment all for the sake of money. Pretty sad to be honest.

Exactly. We need trade with China to survive right now....I just don't think this agreement is the way to do it now that I've read it. Good for putting money in big business pockets though. What do they care what happens after that?

 

[somethingnuw]

Simple economics. Because they have the only economy other than ours in the world that isn't in the crapper, and ours would be too if we weren't exporting to them right now. The industry I'm in (not oil) is exporting fully 70% of production to China right now. If it wasn't for them I dare say I wouldn't be working.

exporting isnt the problem... having China call the shots is...

 

[moyiesledhead]

its not just money but we also have environmental and social issues to be concerned about as well. I have mentioned this before in other threads but I have been to China a few times for business related issues (I used to work for a Japanese trading company) and what I saw and experienced in China makes me really concerned for our country. Basically screw the people and environment all for the sake of money. Pretty sad to be honest.

I agree...but at my advanced age I've pretty much decided their environmental and social issues are their problem, not mine. I know it sounds selfish, but I don't think it's our country's place to be imposing our values on another country. That's how the US got to where they are. If they don't like the way things are then they can fight for change. That's what we did. At that point it would be appropriate to offer our help, but I don't believe it's up to us to initiate it. It is however, up to us to make sure our standards here don't get left behind in the pursuit of money.
Just the narrow minded opinion of an old guy that's realized the more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

[eclipse1966]

100% agree with you on that. Where my concern is with this agreement is that if they dont like a particular ruling against expansion, environmental or otherwise here in Canada then they can challenge it and not necessarily on Canadian soil. So, knowing how the Chinese view their environment etc etc then all of the sudden their standards are imposed on us.

I agree...but at my advanced age I've pretty much decided their environmental and social issues are their problem, not mine. I know it sounds selfish, but I don't think it's our country's place to be imposing our values on another country. That's how the US got to where they are. If they don't like the way things are then they can fight for change. That's what we did. At that point it would be appropriate to offer our help, but I don't believe it's up to us to initiate it. It is however, up to us to make sure our standards here don't get left behind in the pursuit of money.
Just the narrow minded opinion of an old guy that's realized the more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

[moyiesledhead]

And that's pretty much exactly what that agreement as written allows. Scary stuff. I hear the Conservatives have delayed it now though. Hopefully someone finally opened their eyes!

 

[fargineyesore]

I don't think you'll find to many anti Harper people here. He is from Alberta you know. I'm pretty sure that anything Harper does to keep them working will keep him at the top of their totem pole.

Harper's actually from Toronto originally. I find it funny people bitch about foreign companies, but when it suits their purpose to have foreigners fund radical environmental groups that oppose anything to do with the oil sands, they're completely in agreement with it then.

 

[Summiteer]

Harper's actually from Toronto originally. I find it funny people bitch about foreign companies, but when it suits their purpose to have foreigners fund radical environmental groups that oppose anything to do with the oil sands, they're completely in agreement with it then.

You mean like the Koch brothers that fund the Fraser Institute?

 

[rzrgade]

You don`t hav e to love Harper, just have the mental capacity to understand that your two other choices are Justin and Thomas........
If there ever was a better case of be careful what you wish for, i have have not run across it yet.....

On a side note,please show me a POOR third world economy that gives two fast F%$*S about it`s enviroment.........It takes money to have a nice enviroment...........!!!!

 

[RZR101]

You don`t hav e to love Harper, just have the mental capacity to understand that your two other choices are Justin and Thomas........
If there ever was a better case of be careful what you wish for, i have have not run across it yet.....

On a side note,please show me a POOR third world economy that gives two fast F%$*S about it`s enviroment.........It takes money to have a nice enviroment...........!!!!

Yup and Yup.

 

[byronkentgraham]

Only thing I don't like that harper has done is the free trade with china. We should be taxing the crap out of their products coming back, until they decide to start creating environmental regulations. I'm not a greenie by any stretch of the imagination, but they're gonna be the death of us all if they don't start to deal with this.

 

[rzrgade]

I understand your frustration with China,however let me put it in simple terms.......Harper taxing the "crap" outa china is a kin to you telling your banker to go screw him/her self..........It sounds great ,but really does F%&K all for your long term benifit......
We will have a tough time dealing with China and India as they have the CASH,and as such tell us to jump as well as how long to stay in the air............
Now that does not mean i agree with how China and other similar countries went about building wealth. It is easy to get rich when you abuse your social standards ,enviroment and the like...........
Thus we have a moral dilemma ,that is not pleasent at all. Consider it the cost of living in a global economy.........Life is fun; but hardly fair.