Lets start a discussion. How do we fix sledding?

[rightsideup]

There ast 1 providers who offer the classroom session in the Prairie areas but sometimes due to various reasons the field session may never happen. People need to follow up or the course providers need to audit these people

 

[broke'n'nuts]

Its not the OEM's sole responsibility? Do the auto manufacturers force peeps to take driving lessons or tests? No. Its the governments responsibility and it should be here to. Take training if you want a backcountry license. Plain and simple.

A back country license??? One of the reasons I ride back country is to get away from big brother. It's like saying the 75 dollar boat license makes me a better boater. More regulation and more licensing = more tax money (grab)to government I'm sad to say

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

 

[ducati]

I assisted with recovery of two beside the trail over 20 years ago. Little yamaha phazors and only a few miles from the parking lot. It is all about the conditions not the sleds that can get you in trouble. I could ride a 250 bravo to the area the latest incident happened last week in my riding area.

Fair enough. In my 23 years of riding most of the slides I have seen are further back in more technical terrain or if they aren't further back they are in terrain that shouldn't be touched anyways.

Again, education, experience and thinking about the consequences of your actions come into play very heavy. All I am saying is that the new iron gets less experienced people into terrain over their heads very easily.

I do like the idea of reduced trail fees for AST 1 and 2 holders. Not just because of the reduced fees as I normally venture to areas away from the groomed trails but saving money is always a great way to help persuade people to get further educated.

 

[tex78]

It's a tough one. And it doesn't even touch on the guys coming in the back way not paying sweet eff all. But a few bucks more a trail pass versus cost of a SAR call out....isn't going to be an easy answer that's for sure

Doesn't cost the sled club on a call out, it's the government and us tax payers



Some of us even volunteer our time for the sled club to help sars in rescues



I just can't see the license, ast 1 training ect, the answer either

Too many from out of b.c and Country to police it


Example, the new b.c registration, other provinces and countries have different policy's, and if your from out of province only what's there apply

 

[markoo]

I think we should let the government take care of this. The NDP can charge everyone an avalanche tax. We could all get credits for the tax we pay. Then someone from the mountains could buy credits from a flat-lander. As long as you get enough credits you should be safe.

 

[Lund]

Very good thread and interesting but will it change some of the culture here??
I've been backcountry riding and skiing for nearly 30yrs. I can tell you with assurance that the backcountry is lethal if not respected.
Does an AST course teach you the respect needed, i'm not sure about that.
Here are some of the issues i have seen and continue to see on a regular basis. Sledders with all the avy gear, beacon, prob, shovel, survival stuff AND BOOZE even pot.
Booze at elevation in avy country on a motorized vehicle, awesome mix and recipe for disaster, throw in some pot and hell ya what a ride.
It appears to me too many THINK they know what they are doing but once they put on the helmet their brains fall out. One question you or we can all ask our self, do YOU tolerate that behavior??? with people you ride with, if you do your just as much of a problem.
There are soooo many things we can all talk about with this but imo it all starts with you and me as individuals.
In the years i have rode the mountains, i have climbed, descended, crossed and dropped, traverse some of the tallest razor backs on some of the most magnificent mountain's BC has to offer in sledding in some of the most remote areas. Yes there are dangers but having a sound non intoxicated mind by booze or pot makes a difference.

Let me ask a question...how many of you actually do a slab check? How many do you do? If your into remote backcountry riding your answer should be atleast 3, through out the day.
I have yet to see any group while sledding the local area here in Sicamous or Revy do one.....even though they might be aware of conditions, i have yet to see anyone check through out the day when i'm out there. Just an observation but i could be wrong.
Just my 2cents for now

Here is another thought, do you really want the guy drinking the booze or getting high to be responsible for your life in an emergency......i know i don't, i value my life too much.

 

[o zone guy]

Good discussion. Please stop those 2 hour "avy courses" that people think they are avalanche trained after sitting through one. (We all know they are nothing more than an open house to sell more crap at.)
AST1 is the minimum anyone should have, and encourage their family, friends, and riding partners to do the same.
Please keep this one going.
Thanks
RS

Now your talking... i like that... I believe if there was Education a (course) on the terrain (area) Example...Quartz, boulder, turtle, keystone, Eagles pass etc...that your heading into kinda like the sledders guide with a more EXTENSIVE FOUNDATION about the area this would provide VALUABLE KNOWLEDGE... I myself have had the fortune and pleasure to follow guys like RANDY and DARYL BAKER who PROVIDED me with the TERRAIN KNOWLEDGE of the areas and kept the whole group safe, back when avy training wasn't offered to sledders..I AGREE and SUPPORT Randy QUOTE..."Please stop those 2 Hour "avy courses" that people think they are avalanche trained"...AST 1 is just one of the first steps... Theres more to being in the backcountry then just taken an avy course.. YES it is a MUST in this world we live in today..KNOWLEDGE of the AREA and the TERRAIN that your heading into PRICELESS!!!!...EXAMPLE u have your AST 1 course under your BELT... u go to Sunshine Village... they provide u with a General MAP of the AREA,TERRAIN,marked with Green,, Blue, Black runs.. When u arrive at the top of the run it ALSO is marked with green, blue ,black runs.. In an instant u just gained that TERRAIN KNOWLEDGE... For sledders a whole different story?????...MEOW????

 

[rightsideup]

Very good thread and interesting but will it change some of the culture here??
I've been backcountry riding and skiing for nearly 30yrs. I can tell you with assurance that the backcountry is lethal if not respected.
Does an AST course teach you the respect needed, i'm not sure about that.
Here are some of the issues i have seen and continue to see on a regular basis. Sledders with all the avy gear, beacon, prob, shovel, survival stuff AND BOOZE even pot.
Booze at elevation in avy country on a motorized vehicle, awesome mix and recipe for disaster, throw in some pot and hell ya what a ride.
It appears to me too many THINK they know what they are doing but once they put on the helmet their brains fall out. One question you or we can all ask our self, do YOU tolerate that behavior??? with people you ride with, if you do your just as much of a problem.
There are soooo many things we can all talk about with this but imo it all starts with you and me as individuals.
In the years i have rode the mountains, i have climbed, descended, crossed and dropped, traverse some of the tallest razor backs on some of the most magnificent mountain's BC has to offer in sledding in some of the most remote areas. Yes there are dangers but having a sound non intoxicated mind by booze or pot makes a difference.

Let me ask a question...how many of you actually do a slab check? How many do you do? If your into remote backcountry riding your answer should be atleast 3, through out the day.
I have yet to see any group while sledding the local area here in Sicamous or Revy do one.....even though they might be aware of conditions, i have yet to see anyone check through out the day when i'm out there. Just an observation but i could be wrong.
Just my 2cents for now

Here is another thought, do you really want the guy drinking the booze or getting high to be responsible for your life in an emergency......i know i don't, i value my life too much.

all very good points you may be able to trust a guy you ride with when he is sober but what if he consumes 10 beer on the hill? how many people are posting there observations an avalanche.ca

 

[rsaint]

Take the booze away start there and training yes, back country registration get screwed getting to sound like the doomed Alberta oilfield for crist sakes.

 

[tex78]

Now your talking... i like that... I believe if there was Education a (course) on the terrain (area) Example...Quartz, boulder, turtle, keystone, Eagles pass etc...that your heading into kinda like the sledders guide with a more EXTENSIVE FOUNDATION about the area this would provide VALUABLE KNOWLEDGE... I myself have had the fortune and pleasure to follow guys like RANDY and DARYL BAKER who PROVIDED me with the TERRAIN KNOWLEDGE of the areas and kept the whole group safe, back when avy training wasn't offered to sledders..I AGREE and SUPPORT Randy QUOTE..."Please stop those 2 Hour "avy courses" that people think they are avalanche trained"...AST 1 is just one of the first steps... Theres more to being in the backcountry then just taken an avy course.. YES it is a MUST in this world we live in today..KNOWLEDGE of the AREA and the TERRAIN that your heading into PRICELESS!!!!

Holy sh!t dude, proud of ya there



And no meow

 

[snopro]

You are right, it's not the OEM's sole responsibility, but they sure could be a leader in getting the message out.
The auto manufacturers don't force you to take driving lessons, but they sure have them available if you want to take them. You have a Shelby, you should know this.

Some of the manufacturers are and some aren't. One of the ones that is trying is supposedly in the wrong for trying? Yes a 2 hour session is not enough but it is an introduction. Every instructor that has taught these has stressed that everyone in the class should realize that this is only an introduction and everyone should take an AST 1 course. I belive any info you can get is better than nothing. I don't drive my Shelby during avy season so I am good. Lol.

 

[snopro]

A back country license??? One of the reasons I ride back country is to get away from big brother. It's like saying the 75 dollar boat license makes me a better boater. More regulation and more licensing = more tax money (grab)to government I'm sad to say

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I agree but what we are doing isn't working right now? Whats your solution?

 

[Modman]

Been stewing on these thoughts for a few years, reading this thread was the catalyst for this post. Sorry to anyone I may offend.

Today's sleds are more than capable, the ability and minds of most riders today are not.

Funny that sometimes the ones wanting change are the biggest hypocrits - how many of you have posted pics or vids showing off your forays into "extreme" areas and your self-percieved "amazing" talent? Did you not think that someone might use that information the very next weekend? Or are you the only extreme rider out there that can handle it? How can you then say we should invoke a backcountry license when many of you might not pass the test?

Making mandatory licensing is not the answer. Anyone who thinks it is can happily ride with my dad who has 45+ yrs on sleds in the mountains of southeast BC. You will very quickly learn that, while AST 1 is a start, it is no replacement for experience and respect for the mountains. One of the recent guys who died in an avalanche had extensive backcountry experience and avalanche training (according to his next of kin), but one has to question why they were playing in an avy chute.

Why aren't we talking about that? Because every time someone asks the "what mistakes were made" question, all the pussies here say "its not the right time", and then it just gets swept under the rug. Many times its because those very riders have made the same mistakes, but got away with it, and are ashamed to admit it. Admission means they have to give themselves a reality check about their experience level and decision making ability.

Try and talk about what happened on Boulder a few years back. Everyone buries their head in the sand or has a scapegoat or wants to commend how fast there was "self-organization". No one wants to say there was a special avy bulletin out and that conditions were terrible and having that many people congregated in one area was poor judgement. I can't say that I have ever seen anyone with a healthy amount of backcountry experience expose themselves to avy terrain with such cavalier attitudes like many riders today.

And by experience I mean REAL experience, not this bullsh!t everyone feeds each other on the internet about how awesome you all think you are. Talking about it on S&M doesn't give you more experience. Talk to people who have had to tell loved ones their husband is not coming home, that will give you an experience. Its not cliche - I've been there, seen it, its crazy how much of a unbelievably humbling experience that is. You watch someone else go through it, you will do everything you can to make sure it never happens to you.

OneOldFart says he never sees anyone dig a pit on the hill - I ride with a couple people on this forum and they will verify that I dig a pit every time out. My buddies encourage it, and because of that I know we've got each others backs. Time again for one of those "self-admissions" if you or your buddies are making excuses for why you/they are NOT doing it. Are you as experienced as you think? Are they? Don't bluff (more on that cliche later).

Many people here are guilty of too much information sharing. Yes, call me a d!ck all you want, but way too many times people get in over their heads because of something they read on the internet.

You guys wanna "fix" sledding? Its more than AST 1's, hugs and self-proclamation. It starts by being humble and not thinking that because you ride the mountains a lot or that you moved to BC for a few years that means you are the world's most renowned expert on all-things-hilly-and-white. It starts with calling out our chicken **** society who says "everyone is equal" because we aren't.

People get into trouble because they shouldn't be there. With experience comes wisdom, and make no mistake, they are not the same thing. Wisdom is the ability to use knowledge and experience intelligently. Experience can get you up the mountain, wisdom will make sure you get down. Fixing sledding means some people are going to have to show tough love. Sucks but that's the reality.

I've always lived by the motto that sledding is like gambling and mother nature is the house - you put all your chips on the table and you play with your life. Experience is your cards. Play the hand you're dealt, sometimes you have to fold and wait for the next deal. At some point though, you are going to be all in, and when Mother Nature calls your hand, you better not be bluffing.

 

[o zone guy]

Holy sh!t dude, proud of ya ther

And no meow

Put your Goggles back on >> DEWD<< MEOW!!!... LOL..THATS a double MEOW!!!... holy sh!t DEWD proud of ya ther.. kinda late at night for ya... somebody slip something in your tea ...Meow!!... ok lets get back ta the topic thanks a latte ...

 

[007sevens]

"You can't fix stupid" Ron said it best

 

[rightsideup]

Another suggestion I have if you ride with a certain group and you have been trained by different ast 1 providers discuss what was covered by each and if some aspect of the training has been missed by one provider and you are able to educate the members of your riding group do so.

 

[lilduke]

I take responsibility for myself, If i die doing this chit thats my fault and doesn't really effect anyone but my friends and family.
I am more scared about driving down the highway and I had a friend killed a few days ago, a friend of friends killed yesterday, many friends killed over the years in Avy's. It is a risky sport, we all know this. I try my very best to come back alive each day I ride, I like living.

If some fools want to eat lunch under a huge avy slope, not sure I can do anything to help with that?

AST's are a great thing for sure, but I think anyone with a half a clue would think twice about parking under that slope

 

[LBZ]

Problem is even if you are taking responsibility for yourself, willing to die doing the sport/activity you love, it still brings negativity to it in the publics eye. IMO that attitude is kind of a selfish way to treat in this case snowmobiling. What happens in the mountains affects us all in one way or another no matter what the circumstances are in an accident.

Years ago these same accidents and fatalities happened. But now thanks to social media, it's alot easier and faster for these incidents to get out and blow up, both positively and negatively. People need to remember this.

 

[lilduke]

Problem is even if you are taking responsibility for yourself, willing to die doing the sport/activity you love, it still brings negativity to it in the publics eye. IMO that attitude is kind of a selfish way to treat in this case snowmobiling. What happens in the mountains affects us all in one way or another no matter what the circumstances are in an accident.

Years ago these same accidents and fatalities happened. But now thanks to social media, it's alot easier and faster for these incidents to get out and blow up, both positively and negatively. People need to remember this.

Oh for sure I agree. Believe me when I say I care more about myself getting off the mountain safe than anyone. I take responsibility for the people I ride with too.
So far I have a perfect record and really want to keep it that way.

 

[o zone guy]

I take responsibility for myself, If i die doing this chit thats my fault and doesn't really effect anyone but my friends and family.
I am more scared about driving down the highway and I had a friend killed a few days ago, a friend of friends killed yesterday, many friends killed over the years in Avy's. It is a risky sport, we all know this. I try my very best to come back alive each day I ride, I like living.

If some fools want to eat lunch under a huge avy slope, not sure I can do anything to help with that?
I Agree... Face Your Fear...It Loses its Power.. i drive by myself all the time... millions doo everyday
AST's are a great thing for sure, but I think anyone with a half a clue would think twice about parking under that slope

I agree.. face your fear... It loses its power.. I drive by myself millions doo everyday