Lets start a discussion. How do we fix sledding?

[Depsnolvr]

How can fix the seemingly un-reachable mountain "sledder"?


This weekend we witnessed so many scenarios that almost made it embarrassing to be labeled as a mountain sledder. The picture below is one of them. There are other examples and even one occasion where we very gently approached groups riding under very large hazards only to be met with complete arrogance and conflict.


How can we fix this? How long will we be able to participate in this amazing sport before we are banned from the back country? What incident will be the last straw in the eyes of the regulators? This needs to be a community wide discussion and it need to happen now.


We have had a bad year as a sport with far too many incidents that resulted in someone losing a life and others losing family members and friends. I know this will not be popular, although all of these incidents were arguably avoidable should riders have chosen terrain accordingly based on their training and the avalanche hazard, traveled safely and effectively in avalanche terrain, and practice good habits.


These potentially life changing terrain decisions must be based on the avalanche hazard and this then needs to be compared to your personal level of experience, training and your skill to evaluate the hazard and the terrain directly from the field.


If the experience and training are not there to effectively make important decisions from the field, there are tools available that we can use (Avalanche Canada) and we need to treat these tools as our PPE (personal protective education???) so to speak, although we cannot simply rely on the one-word danger ratings to keep us safe.


There is much more data available to us if we go looking, but the problem is, we need to WANT to go looking and we need to make decisions based on what we are reading.


If we do not have the skill level and experience to handle the hazards discussed, we need to avoid them at all costs and this comes down again to.....you guessed it… terrain! And this is something that we control 100%


We are our own worst enemies when it comes to the terrain we think is suitable for the conditions as we understand them. Human factors such as familiarity, complacency and acceptance often sway our individual decision making abilities.


In this day and age, we should not have mountain sledders heading up with out all the basic tools (avalanche transceiver, probe, shovel and training). These tools are all necessary and mandatory and this should not even be a thought in the sledders mind, they should be habit.
We should not be seeing backpacks full of safety gear strapped to sleds, or tunnel bags full of booze instead of survival gear. We should not be seeing families heading up a trail where only Dad has the equipment and when questioned says we are “not heading into avalanche terrain”. We should not be seeing multiple people sitting in run out zones or terrain traps exposed to hazard, and this list can go on and on.


This culture needs to change, but how can we do it?


One of the biggest problems I face as an avalanche safety educator and promoter is that the un-reachable mountain sledder will likely not lay eyes on this piece of text or the many others that are often circulated. This is likely to end up as just another rant that is only going to be read by those who know better.

Sledding is like any other sport or thing. The people that care are the ones that educate themselves. Unfortunately our sport has higher consequences than most. Sometimes bad things happen even if you are prepared and educated but at least be responsible and inform yourself.

But! You all can share this information, talk about responsible riding in the field and make safety (ugh…I hate that word…responsible decision making maybe?) a bigger part of the culture of our sport.

Please continue to the discussion.

Ride safe.

 

[Warhawk]

I so agree with your post Curtis. We were in Cooke city and seeing the same stuff. Two guys high marking at the same time. No backpacks. One guy had a shovel on the tunnel. Really wanted to say something but like you said. All you get is attitude. I told our group lets get out of here. We did and when we came back I was so happy to NOT see a avy there.
I feel that we as sledders need to start to be more vocal with the waterheads out on the hill.
I felt pretty bad not saying anything but I'm just tired of the attitude. Saw same thing at crowsnest pass.
People please play smart.

 

[dragonweld28]

Great Topic Curtis

I think it is hard for everyone to understand the severity of there actions, and unless you chose to be knowledgeable, it will remain a constant battle. As young boys my Dad made sure that we knew the dangers and did his best to educate us from a young age. He never took an avalanche course as nothing was really available back in the day but made certain points clear to us

The mountain riding segment has really expanded in the last 10 yrs and there has been a ton of people introduced to this amazing sport. You ( Curtis)see it everyday, hear it everyday and often have to be one to go out rescue these uneducated riders. For most people, they only hear on the news that someone had died in an avalanche, yes im sure most people take it to heart but is most likely forgotten in short amount of time.

You have dedicated your life to Valemount and back county riding, where as most people dedicate there life to something that isn't remotely close to sled preservation. They work had to be able to afford this sport and aren't connected to the impact that everyone has in the back country. It will be a constant battle as most think that there 3-5 sled trips a year has little affect on the stability of the sport.

As sleds continue to get better we as mountain sledders should ALL be educated. An AST1 would be a good place to start. Some people will complain about the cost, but there will always be people who complain about that. We have guys on here that complain about the trail passes.

I know this issue must drive you crazy..... We appreciate everything that you have done and continue to keep doing to keep this sport going strong.

 

[tex78]

I go over and explain to these guys that it's a bad idea, reason why, that the conditions from the last while ect, being local and seeing week to week conditions

Leave it in there ball court, if they choose to not listen, I explain to them I'm leaving the area and getting away from them and why ( so I don't have to use my avy training on a dumb azz punk) which is soooo retarded to think and say, but it's putting me at risk soooo we just leave and hope they think about what was said

 

[moyiesledhead]

No different than the guys that feel the need to take a flat of beer with them for the day. Been trying to do something about it for years. It'll never change. I've quit trying.

 

[pano-dude]

I believe the problem is it's to easy for a new rider to buy a sled that will take you places you should not be.
Graduated licensing is the only way to ensure riders have the training and experience to be somewhat safe.
Need lisc to buy a gun, ride a moto, drive a car....
All an industry can do is ensure people have the training, can't control if they use it or not.

 

[Chump]

Experienced the same thing in gorman this weekend. 2 guys on the hill at the same time. Climbing on an open face with exposed rocks above, wind loaded and in the sun. One ended up barried up on the shelf. The other carried down and thankfully stayed on top while his sled was mostly under. No one in this group seemed to be properly prepared. The amount of time it took to get an answer that they were still missing there buddy(who was up on the shelf) didn't help the situation. Not sure if they were in shock or what. Thankfully everyone was ok. Way to close for comfort.

I don't like being put into a situation like that. There are plenty of safe areas to play and avoid these situations all together. Use your HEADS people!!!!!

 

[catinthehat]

The first step in "fixing" anything is acknowledging there is something that needs fixed.
Unfortunately we have all experienced the attitude when we speak up and as we get older we are less likely to put up with the bs and aggressiveness that comes with it.
I believe you are correct in expecting the powers that be to step in and regulate the hell out of the sport, luckily I am old enough now to be comfortable with trail riding as long as I can still get out.

 

[rightsideup]

in sicamous we have had various*a least !0) incidents were people have dropped in area and have not been able to get out gone the individual who recovered sled suggested signs which to avoid the area as i related this to another person he said you said you can't fix stupid sorry I think there can be barriers to help resolve this, We have on parking lot attendant that actually has communicated where slides have occurred. very helpful info.





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[climbmax]

Good discussion. Please stop those 2 hour "avy courses" that people think they are avalanche trained after sitting through one. (We all know they are nothing more than an open house to sell more crap at.)
AST1 is the minimum anyone should have, and encourage their family, friends, and riding partners to do the same.
Please keep this one going.
Thanks
RS

 

[ducati]

Could not agree more Curtis. It is getting really bad and with the sleds just getting so much better people are in over their heads terrain wise even if the sled will get them in. In my years in the hills I have seen a big sled go from being a wedge 600 with a 1.5" 136 to what these weapons are now.

I know I have approached other groups and was only met with hostility from guys with far less experience but a lot of liquid courage.

I know any group I lead I go over terrain, conditions, rider experience, etc... and just try to lead by example and spread the word that way.

 

[K45]

I would imagine this guy had good training, sometimes bad things happen.

Hp, better sleds, training dont mean much when from what I as well as others have seen is beverage induced bad judgement to be the biggest problem.

 

[tex78]

in sicamous we have had various*a least !0) incidents were people have dropped in area and have not been able to get out gone the individual who recovered sled suggested signs which to avoid the area as i related this to another person he said you said you can't fix stupid sorry I think there can be barrier to help resolve this, We have on parking lot attendant that actually has communicated where slides have occurred. very helpful info.





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Dropping into a drainage or area not able to come back out is one thing, it is preventable too, just like going into a park or caribou closure



Climbing a hill loaded with bad snow, more than one at a time, the list goes on is totally preventable, with no dumb azz signs needed

 

[Rbrduk]

Not sure if it can be done. With the help of the OEM's, incorporate ast1 in the price of machines (in the west) with displacement of 600cc or more and track length of 140 or more. This comes as a certificate to one of the local providers. Now it's back in the hands of the consumer and if they don't want to take the course, they're the ones losing money.
Just a thought.

 

[markoo]

Not sure if it can be done. With the help of the OEM's, incorporate ast1 in the price of machines (in the west) with displacement of 600cc or more and track length of 140 or more. This comes as a certificate to one of the local providers. Now it's back in the hands of the consumer and if they don't want to take the course, they're the ones losing money.
Just a thought.

So if you ride a 600 with a 136" track you won't ever be in an avalanche. Sounds silly to me.

 

[Rbrduk]

So if you ride a 600 with a 136" track you won't ever be in an avalanche. Sounds silly to me.

Just a place to start. Also not saying if you ride a utility sled you can't get into avy terrain.

 

[rightsideup]

Dropping into a drainage or area not able to come back out is one thing, it is preventable too, just like going into a park or caribou closure



Climbing a hill loaded with bad snow, more than one at a time, the list goes on is totally preventable, with no dumb azz signs needed

frankly tex I know you and I took the 1 day companion rescue and it may have refreshed you skills but if warn someone to not climb that hill and get ignored then other decisions need to be made

 

[Keith Brown]

I know the over whelming majority of long time sledders have no avalanche training. "They have years of mountain sledding experienced they don't need avalanche training" Hey guess who is teaching their kids. I don't give a sh!t how many years you have ridden in the mountains. The game changed ten years ago. Its simple if you are not taking reoccurring avalanche training your unnecessarily risking your life. More importantly you are risking the lives of the people you ride with. Here are my ideas on "Fixing Sledding" 1) Snowmobile clubs raise trail fees and membership's and give discounts to AST1 and AST2 holders or rebates who complete training 2) Snowmobile clubs wave all trail fees for students in AST training 3) Manufactures offer rebates/discounts on sleds intended for mountain riding to AST1/2 holders. 4) Avalanche Canada does an amazing job with the funds they have, but they are under funded. All user groups need to contribute more and canvas Ottawa for more funding. Maybe now is a good time to lobby. Our Prime Minster lost his brother to a avalanche. Pubic awareness is important. Imaging a mother watching TV and is told her husband is risking the lives of here kids every time he takes them sledding. See how that works out for him.

 

[0neoldfart]

Curtis, thank you for posting this thread. IMHO, the sport has grown at least 200% over the last 12 years. I used to ride during the week and not see another truck in the staging area, now on any given day there are 10 - 12 trucks, and the staging areas are full on weekends. Part of this is due to disposable income, part is the machinery is far more capable, partly due to extreme sledding videos which do NOT show the huge support staff that is involved while filming (monkey see, monkey do) and another part is the easy financing terms offered by any of the manufacturers - this all contributes to the increased volume.
Complacency is a huge part as well - in the last 3 years I've not seen evidence of one snow pit being dug in the alpine, unless an AST course was on. Granted, there are ways to identify the snow conditions and form some manner of conclusion, but how many of us actually take the time to do so? Unless you are watching weather and precipitation all season long and actually probing snow pack to determine layers, simply looking at terrain will only point out the blatantly obvious hazards, it isn't going to tell you "what lies beneath". Certainly we all get excited after a fresh snowfall, but we need to curb our enthusiasm and take measures to ensure the safety of ourselves, our riding group, and others that simply may not know. It isn't to hard to strike up a friendly conversation and mention in passing that the affected hazard area is a high risk. Being "opinionated or aggressive" when bringing this topic up will usually result in wounded pride and defiance - at that point you will be speaking to deaf ears.
Or, we have the "bulletproof" riders that know everything, been there, done that, and see tracks on a hill, so it must be safe, right? We have a lot of riders that can mash the throttle to the bars and climb almost anywhere with the new iron, and if you add a few beers or a left handed cigarette into the equation, it is a disaster waiting to happen - maybe not today or tomorrow, but it will happen to them or someone they know, and it's a hell of a wake up call when it does.
At the end of the day, we have to speak up and educate riders, whether they be newbies or "experienced" riders who throw caution to the wind, or maybe were never taught how to be prepared for an overnight stay, or what hazards to watch for in the back country. This will take you out your comfort zone, but it's better then having recreational areas closed down, or worse - someone losing their life. Yes, there will be those who will not listen, but at least we've made an attempt - everyone has a moral compass, and it will be a very long uphill battle involved to ensure all of them point north... play safe out there.

 

[ducati]

A smaller sled won't necessarily force you to stay out of avy terrain but it sure will make you work harder to get there. The new sleds will take you into places in the blink of an eye that we used to fight all day to get into. It also forces you to learn riding techniques rather than rely on power alone.

There really is not one answer to this issue at all but a variety of things including education, leading by example and making an attempt to help others realize they may be doing something that is extremely high risk is a damn good start.