Residential Geothermal

[mdwils]

Now back to your original programming, my sister is a real estate agent and she will not list a house with Geothermal, even if it newer! Like the appraiser said it is a de-valuation to your property.

Bummer
Why would that be??

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[DRD]

Don't forget he said acerage, depending where he is looking there might not be any natural gas close by, or you would have to pay to have lines run, which would offset the cost, as for electrical it doesn't cost any more than running a regular furnace and if a new building insulated properly would cost less than an older less efficient house

Nah, it's Ab. I live way further out than Dave is looking and have gas service. If you want to lose your ass every month heat with electric in Ab. I spend 150-200 month on electrical without running a furnace, just well pump and the house etc.
Our gas co-op is 5k to run gas, doesn't matter if it's 100' or a 500'

 

[250mark1]

I think the only systems that work for geothermal in Alberta are the well systems the pit style loops just don't grab enough heat in the winter
look at the sylvan lake pool they had to re work everything to add a natural gas system to provide 80 percent of the heat
you have to do your homework to find a qualified contractor who knows what they are doing just like a septic system lots of crappy guys around red deer who do it to cheap and then don't stand behind there work when it fails in a year or 2

 

[broke'n'nuts]

Nah, it's Ab. I live way further out than Dave is looking and have gas service. If you want to lose your ass every month heat with electric in Ab. I spend 150-200 month on electrical without running a furnace, just well pump and the house etc.
Our gas co-op is 5k to run gas, doesn't matter if it's 100' or a 500'

Geothermal isn't the same as running electric heat, all you are basically doing is running a blower motor, just like a forced air electric furnace, your just not having to pay to burn gas. As for the devaluation, maybe for colder climates because they can't keep up in deep freezes, but I have no problems with my system other than it was designed wrong for application. I was surprised at how well the cooling side works in the summer

 

[rzrgade]

Geothermal isn't the same as running electric heat, all you are basically doing is running a blower motor, just like a forced air electric furnace, your just not having to pay to burn gas. As for the devaluation, maybe for colder climates because they can't keep up in deep freezes, but I have no problems with my system other than it was designed wrong for application. I was surprised at how well the cooling side works in the summer

The point is you use more electric with GT as you are running a pump & fan constantly. Many have forced air electric fan back up systems included as well to keep up in peak cold periods. Therefore you are using much more electric energy than normal setups,thus eliminating any savings brought about by not having gas...........Power is much more pricey than gas out here !
I am not saying the systems do not work,however payback for cash out lay is laughable.......... Also for 3k$ i can put a new state of the art furnace in any home just about,WHEN your GT system goes down 95% of the heating outfits wont have a clue how to fix it. 99% of the repairmen can get your furnace running though.........

 

[mdwils]

As for the devaluation, maybe for colder climates because they can't keep up in deep freezes, but I have no problems with my system other than it was designed wrong for application. I was surprised at how well the cooling side works in the summer

Well the devaluation is stupid in my opinion. It should be incentive for somebody to purchase a house with it installed. Especially since they don't have the initial expense of the install. Mine has worked great for the last three years and I too was surprised at the A/C. You could hang beef in the kitchen if u wanted to.

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[broke'n'nuts]

The point is you use more electric with GT as you are running a pump & fan constantly. Many have forced air electric fan back up systems included as well to keep up in peak cold periods. Therefore you are using much more electric energy than normal setups,thus eliminating any savings brought about by not having gas...........Power is much more pricey than gas out here !
I am not saying the systems do not work,however payback for cash out lay is laughable.......... Also for 3k$ i can put a new state of the art furnace in any home just about,WHEN your GT system goes down 95% of the heating outfits wont have a clue how to fix it. 99% of the repairmen can get your furnace running though.........

Agreed you do use a bit more electricity, but I don't think it runs that much more than forced air. As for the AB to BC cost I spent the last 15 yrs in AB so I understand the cost difference. As for the repair end to an extent you are right about most people being clueless about fixing them, including a lot of the installers. Trouble shooting them is a lot different bit once you find the right repair guy it's no worse than forced air. I wouldn't be scared of buyin a place with geothermal again but I also would have a lot more of an in depth check done on the system before buying. Agreed your cost recovery time is poor, especially in AB. But I also wouldn't put electric back up in. Whole point to me of back up is safety net. I would install wood stove f building. The pellet stove is nice but still needs power. But if you are going to install and actual A/C system with your gas furnace you have to factor that cost in to as the geo does both

 

[Summiteer]

My understanding of Geothermal is that it is good for large operations that don't necessarily need to be heated to 20C. Large livestock barns, aviaries, that sort of thing. Payout just isn't there in our climate for a residential system if you have to pay retail for installation. Your best bet would be quality windows high efficiency furnace and top quality insulation.

 

[rsaint]

Utilities are to property line...elec, phone and gas. I will need to do a well and a septic field.

If i was closer would give you a price for septic. As for geothermal it is a joke in this climate You will never recover the cost. It is for places like Iceland where the water is coming from the earth at 80+f. When your electric bill goes up way up does not make sense. 7 yrs ago I looked into it with a company from Red Deer we talked a lot about it and soon as i said i was comparing it to a wood boiler they basically hung the phone up 1/4 the cost but lots of wood. Finally seen the light and have natural gas, spend money on spray foam insulation energy efficient windows even then the payback is a long time.

 

[rsaint]

My understanding of Geothermal is that it is good for large operations that don't necessarily need to be heated to 20C. Large livestock barns, aviaries, that sort of thing. Payout just isn't there in our climate for a residential system if you have to pay retail for installation. Your best bet would be quality windows high efficiency furnace and top quality insulation.

U have the right understanding and with quality windows and insulation no need for AC.

 

[sumx54]

My understanding of Geothermal is that it is good for large operations that don't necessarily need to be heated to 20C. Large livestock barns, aviaries, that sort of thing. Payout just isn't there in our climate for a residential system if you have to pay retail for installation. Your best bet would be quality windows high efficiency furnace and top quality insulation.

This and an ICF structure and your golden. I subscribed to this thread for a third opinion on this subject as I also was thinking about going Geothermal with my build. The consensus is to stay away from it. I've done a ton of research on this ICF stuff and think that's the way to go as far as efficient. Insulated Concrete Forms.

 

[X-it]

I would stick with the main stream, you can always install geothermal down the road...if it takes off. To save i would do it with your electricity. They are really making progress here. My electric bills are on average 25 dollars a month. BC has a program out called team power smart which nobody seems to care about. If you cut 10% off you power bill for a whole year they will give you 75 dollars back. I have gotten several checks for 75 dollars. And we have a 2 tier rate system, if you like using power your going to pay for it second tier is 10.34 cents. They make some pretty nice air exchangers now. But it would take a little attitude adjusting, they also have the same thing for water has well but this needs a major attitude adjusting. My brother has a 6 well geothermal system.. i will not make comment any farther.

 

[Beels]

I have a couple friends that were in the geothermal business and they told me flat out, the only time geo makes economic sense is if you don't have access to nat. gas or it's too cost prohibitive to put in.

 

[mareshow]

OK, Here's the Run down on Geothermal: (I'm a Building Environmental Systems Technologist and i specialized in alternate heat sources so thats what i'm pulling my info from, well that and I design the stuff too its interesting to say the least)

Geothermal Heating in Alberta is a waste of money According to the Geothermal Index, a location must have a rating higher than 200 to be "efficient" Most of Alberta is rated at 204. So your efficiency and turn over rate is terrible. That and most of your ground loops will have to be rather deep (200-300 ft), so initial set up cost is ridiculously expensive. Once running yes you will see a gain, but given gas pricing vs electrical its going to be a long time before you see a payback in investment. So unless your a government institute that likes to waste money, dont go geothermal. If we were in europe, i would say go for it! (their index rating averages between 400-500, see the difference). Edit: Now if you want to do geothermal cooling thats a completely different story. I wont get into it but its definitely a viable option here

Now if you want to have a fantastic alternate energy system that actually works in Alberta, check out solar heating. Our solar gain in Alberta is extremely high, so solar works fantastically well. With a few panels on your roof you can heat water to over 300 degrees Fahrenheit (even in the winter on those -35 days!) It works when its sunny, it works when its cloudy, it works well ish in precipitation but thats what the boiler back up is for.

here is a website to a brand I recommend. Initial set up isnt that much more than a boiler system and Maintenance is extremely easy.



Your boiler will practically never run and you can use this for domestic hot water heating as well. If you want to talk about efficiency this is the cats meow right now for AB. Payback for this type of system really depends on what you go with as far as size goes but i would expect a 10 year payback plan.

If you have more questions let me know, this is not a very well known type of heating but it works. And I'd be happy to provide you with a quote to install a system

 

[Nytroman]

Nah, it's Ab. I live way further out than Dave is looking and have gas service. If you want to lose your ass every month heat with electric in Ab. I spend 150-200 month on electrical without running a furnace, just well pump and the house etc.
Our gas co-op is 5k to run gas, doesn't matter if it's 100' or a 500'

$7000 in my neck of the woods, 5miles, 5 ft same price. wont even give a mobilization break when putting brothers service in across the road, so will book it for later on so they have to travel the full distance for mine

 

[FernieHawk]

The only person I know who has gone Geothermal told me he would never do it again. He is located in southern BC, a few km from the US border and he says his electric bills are outrageous...it is a 5000 sq ft log home, so obviously that figures into it.

One thing to consider if you are going with radiant infloor heat...pour a six-inch concrete floor and use an electric element heat source (doesn’t have to be an expensive boiler) for your hydronic system. You then get a Dual 'time of use' meter and set up your heat circuit so it only runs during the low tariff period.

With Fortis in BC, the first 1600 kW.h is @ 8.803¢ per kW, with additional kW.h @ 12.952¢ per kW.h. If you get a Dual 'time of use' meter I believe the rate in the low tariff period is around 5.5 cents Kilowatt-hour and the high tariff period is around 17 cents a Kilowatt-hour. 25% of the hours in a week are the high tariff period and 75% of the hours are the low tariff. With a six-inch slab you can easily coast through the high tariff periods without using the electric heat source. You could also install a holding tank to increase your coasting capabilities.

The six-inch concrete slab is also great for moderating the summer temperatures.

This is just another alternative that is really built proof and simple. It is also relatively cheap if you are already going radiant floor heat.

 

[mareshow]

The only person I know who has gone Geothermal told me he would never do it again. He is located in southern BC, a few km from the US border and he says his electric bills are outrageous...it is a 5000 sq ft log home, so obviously that figures into it.

One thing to consider if you are going with radiant floor heat...pour a six-inch concrete floor and use an electric element heat source (doesn’t have to be an expensive boiler). You then get a Dual 'time of use' meter and set up your heat circuit so it only runs during the low tariff period.

With Fortis in BC, the first 1600 kW.h is @ 8.803¢ per kW, with additional kW.h @ 12.952¢ per kW.h. If you get a Dual 'time of use' meter I believe the rate in the low tariff period is around 5.5 cents Kilowatt-hour and the high tariff period is around 17 cents a Kilowatt-hour. 25% of the hours in a week are the high tariff period and 75% of the hours are the low tariff. With a six-inch slab you can easily coast through the high tariff periods without using the electric heat source. You could also install a holding tank to increase your coasting capabilities.

The six-inch concrete slab is also great for moderating the summer temperatures.

This is just another alternative that is really built proof and simple. It is also relatively cheap if you are already going radiant floor heat.

A condensing Boiler and radiant infloor, while more expensive initially, will be vastly cheaper in the long run. Two of my customers, in contrast, is what i'm referencing that from, one has the electric and the other a condensing gas boiler with infloor of about the same area. A 98% efficient condensing boiler will always win, but yes you are right the initial set up will be more expensive but we have yet to see the longevity of these electric infloor systems as well so I'd be worried about that as well.

A good rule of thumb for Heating and cooling systems is the more money you can put down initially usually (if not guarantees) that you will be paying less down the road. There is meaning in the words "you get what you pay for". For example I push Viessmann and NTI boilers, yes they are slightly more expensive than some other boilers on the market but they have way less downtime (if any) and parts are more readily available. Thats worth paying more for in my opinion. After all isnt your boiler going down on the coldest night of the year the last thing you want?

One more thing i'll say about a Hydronic system vs electric, If something happens (power outage, boiler failure, anything) With a water system and storage tank/expansion tank, you will have limited heating even if its broken due to ghost flows and convective currents. Something you will not get with electric. Not to mention that you better get a humidifier with electric heat, that'll dry out *insert joke here* anything.

 

[OVERKILL 19]

I researched it along time ago. It didn't add up for me. If I was out of town, I'd be coal fired boiler. Buddy at work has one. Boiler sits 1000 yards from house down in trees. Buried glycol lines to house, shop and garage. Prob 5500sq ft easy. He spends $6-700 a year tops. The only down fall is its messy and you need a frt end loader to fill hopper. He buys it by the B-train.

 

[Twacked]

I'm a heating/ac contractor in BC. Since so many areas do not have access to ng, heat pumps are the most efficient heat source we have almost three times more efficient than electric heat. There are inverter drive heat pumps coming to market now that will heat till about 15 below, in the BC interior these are going to work great. In Alberta with the colder winters your best bet is still ng. There are 98% efficient furnaces available. With all the shale gas that is being found ng prices should remain low. The pay back on gt is about 20 to 30 years got that long?

 

[Dazzler]

Anybody run a geothermal system for heating/cooling in a newer house? I am interested, but I can't seem to find any actual $$$ figures on what it costs to install. Anybody with any input on this?

We are looking real hard at doing an acreage (see other thread) and I was thinking of going this route on the new house...

There are some very good points in some of the reply's DaveB.... IMO.... you will never go wrong with good insulation... I personally question the performance of spray foam insulation, icf is amazing but a little difficult to wire/finish exterior walls.... good windows are number 1!!!! I have had geothermal for just over 10 years now and so far no issues, payback???? we live in a gas rich province!! Comfort??? you can't beat geo!!! geo performs better in an air duct system and AC is just part of it.... if you are partial to all infloor or hydronic heat??? I think NG and a good condensing boiler would be best!! If you like hydronic baseboard heat??? don't even consider a geo system!! Depending on size of your new home... one geo unit can supply both air duct and hydronic... But do your home work as there are definitely some fly by night outfits out there.... and anyone that puts in electric heat in alberta is misinformed..... IMHO

Someone mentioned something about horizontal.... they work well.... in the right soil condition and the Sylvan swimming pool??? They installed the field under the parking lot... rule number one in geo... do not drive on the geo field in the winter... it drives the frost down!!

PM me Dave if you like, I have a little info!!