Another Cat Ski Operation?

[kootenaycat]

Like we don't have enough of them out there already, another company wants to open one up between Ainsworth and Kokanee park and it's huge and they want EXCLUSIVE use of the cat roads which means no more sledding. I know most of you have never and will never sled there but the next one could be in your back yard so any support helps.



Link to their management plan/maps:

If you are tired of being told you can't sled on public land then do everyone a favour and submit a short letter saying you're against this application. Couldn't find a link to submit public input on the application page so try this contacts page:



Thanks,
Kevin

 

[barleyfarmer]

How does it work there?Is it big business sliding money to the tree hugger groups so they will get their support to show that skiing has no environmental impact like sledding?What does a guy have to do because it seems like out of province support for keeping sledding areas open as opposed to solely for skiing seems to have no effect!We can get on here and rant and rave but at the end of the day it is up to you guys who you vote in!!Your local politicians are not going to give a rats ass what a bunch of sledders from Alberta are pissed that their sledding area is shut down for heli skiers and such unless they are directly affected!!We can't vote in your elections and honestly sledding does contribute to a lot of local economies out there so let your mp's and mla's know!Everyone on here and myself included would contribute money to help the fight but where?It is starting to get like fighting a house fire with a cup of water when the other team has a fire truck!More people in your province need to get involved and let us know how and where to help!!

 

[Modman]

More people in your province need to get involved and let us know how and where to help!!

well, that's kinda what he'd doing here......

Barleyfarmer - while you have no political vote, you can still "vote" on this by signing the petition and showing support for no private backcountry use. Crown land belongs to the people. Tell all your friends and forward the information on, that is your way of voting. These big businesses are not sliding money to the tree huggers, they are sliding money to the govt. However the land belongs to the people but the govt makes $$$ off tenures. I do agree that more of the residents of BC need to stand up and say no to this style of development.

Imagine that though - a snowcat operation wants to keep sledders off their trails and is using safety as the excuse - can't imagine why they think that ...hey willy..............

 

[Wilk INStheWEST]

I was under the impression that tenure just means a company is able to run a business on the land. It is still public land and you are still able to use it. Unless they actually buy the land and own and operate on private land, you can still access the terrain. What these companies try to do is make the roads private so sledders can't use those. I believe this is what Chatter Creek does, until they open up to Sledders in April. The major problem I see of this would be that even if sledders use the terrain, the operating business will make a giant stink about it and just add more bad publicity to the snowmobile community.
Correct me if I'm wrong though.

 

[Modman]

Yes, the terrain is still open, they are just looking to make their roads "private" for safety (wink wink). You can still access it if you don't ride on their roads. They are hoping that is enough to keep people out I guess. I don't know if Chatter does this or not specifically. Chatter has always been good to sledders, so their good name should not be smeared in any way.

In this specific case for tenure, the application includes sledders as giving the BC backcountry a bad rep (how that is relevant to a cat ski tenure application....you decide). We are implicated before page 3.

 

[Wilk INStheWEST]

I agree Chatter has been great to Sledders, it was just an operation that I used as an example. I'll take a closer look at the application when I have a chance. I had heard that Powder Cowboy was grooming trails into terrain adjacent to the terrain they use for cat skiing so that sledders don't use their skiing terrain. Great idea I think, keeps everyone happy and it's small extra cost to the operation.

 

[kootenaycat]

Would be great if there could be organization between the 2 groups but unfortunately many skiers have a different mentallity that the back country should be exclusively theirs. And of course all the company cares about is the bottom line - the almighty dollar. A cat ski operation at Trout lake is an example of that, Alberta based business that does not contribute a penny to the local economy - locals say everything is trucked in and they build huge berms to attempt to keep the sleds out. Friends of mine went around the berm couple years ago only to be met by the cat operator where he had built a huge berm in the middle of the trail and was parked on the other side. The terrain is huge and there's no reason why we can't work together on a day to day basis of who rides what. Sledders can easily finish off areas that skiers have carved up the day before but they want it all to themselves. I believe Meadow mtn has a groomed trail into the back meadows which are open for sledders all season long, and accesses the sled cabin. Snowater originally tried for exclusive use which was fought hard against so instead they used to push a trail around their terrain for the sleds to go through the saddle and into the back bowls, though I've heard they stopped doing that.

Until it's mandatory that companies applying for tenures leave access for all recreationists then I'm against all commercial tenures on crown land. We are expected to share the back country and so it should be that way with all users.

As for this new application and their "safety" concern with cat trails. Simple solution - if something they design and want to build on crown land isn't safe for all public then it shouldn't be built. Simple as that.

 

[glassman]

Next thing you know there will be caribou closures in that area too. That is how wiggley keeps some of the backcountry closed, by getting the envirogreenies to resrict access to areas because of a possible caribou zone. May not apply here, but just shows you that they cant stop you from riding there, just getting there.

 

[kootenaycat]

This is the email to send comments in referring to the newest cat ski operation:

Direct your comments directly to Jessie Lunan (Lands Officer at Jessie.Lunan@gov.bc.ca ). In the subject line of your email please quote “referral comments on lands file: 4405287 (Mountain Trek)”

 

[kootenaycat]

Next thing you know there will be caribou closures in that area too. That is how wiggley keeps some of the backcountry closed, by getting the envirogreenies to resrict access to areas because of a possible caribou zone. May not apply here, but just shows you that they cant stop you from riding there, just getting there.

Guaranteed, they do claim the corridor runs north/south from the USA up to Revelstoke and Ainsworth is right in line with it. There's always an excuse.

 

[kootenaycat]

did u notice the sno goers sled cabin burnt down all of a sudden ... up rover ? gee i wonder who that was ?? i also know of someone who broke both his collar bones because snow water built not one but 2 big walls on the road . he owns the 30 acres around the lodge nothing else ... so rip dat chit up !!

How recently did the club cabin burn down? You talking the a-frame past Maloney's lodge?

 

[Old Boy]

And we have Jumbo on this side of the hills.

 

[kootenaycat]

And we have Jumbo on this side of the hills.

And this after environmentalists, natives and the general public said no. Like I've said before, it's all about the money, nothing else matters.

 

[TheMuffinMan]

Well I consider myself a skier first sledder second so I will say a few words from "the other side" even though I know that I will likely take a chit kicking for it.


I'll start off by saying that personally I have no problem sharing the back country with sledders. I'll often use a sled myself to access ski terrain when the occasion calls for it and once in a while I'll just leave the skis at home and tear around on the sled all day. There is enough country out there for all of us. That being said, I've had talks with many skiers who do not share my views and to be honest, most of their complaints are valid and I have a hard time arguing sometimes.


Too often I hear nothing but complaints from the sled side, along with a sense of entitlement. Why cant I sled wherever I like? Who is that guy to tell me I can't ride here? What makes skiers think they own the backcountry? What you need to be asking yourselves is: what am I doing to advocate my right to ride here? Whether you want to be or not, every time you load up that sled and pull out of your shop, you are a representative of your sport from that point until you park it back in the shop. Are you driving courteously on your way to the mountains? Are you watching your language in the family restaurant where you and your 3 buddies are having dinner while wearing your sled jackets? Are you riding with a stock exhaust or did you rip it off and mount the aftermarket can that everyone in a two-mile radius can hear? Are you guzzling beer in the parking lot in plain view of that group of backcountry skiers and expecting them to know that it's your only one of the day? These things may not seem like a big deal to you, but to your average city dwelling skier it's enough for them to go back home with a story about how a group of snowmobilers ruined their ski trip, and word travels fast.


As far as the cat skiing ops go, keep in mind these guys are trying to run a business, and they are in the business of keeping their customers happy. People pay a lot of money to go on cat-ski trips, and lets face it wealthy city folk expect to be pampered and that means perfect untouched powder to ski in; that's what these outfits advertise. Repeat customers keep them in business so that cat operator telling you to go ride somewhere else is not trying to be an azzhole, he's just trying to protect his livelihood just like you would if some enviro-greenies tried to shut down your drilling rig or pipeline. Lastly, it's the cat ski outfit that is paying to groom and maintain those access trails so unless there is a snowmobile club that is pitching in to help cover those costs (and you are a member or contributor to that club) then the operator has every right to be pissed about snowmobilers poaching his access. I've said this before, sledding is the sport that has the target on its back. Unfair? Absolutely, but like it or not that's the way it is. The only way it's going to change is if every sledder asks "what am I doing to better the image of this sport?," not once in a while, but every time they pull that sled out of the shop.

 

[Modman]

Well I consider myself a skier first sledder second so I will say a few words from "the other side" even though I know that I will likely take a chit kicking for it.


I'll start off by saying that personally I have no problem sharing the back country with sledders. I'll often use a sled myself to access ski terrain when the occasion calls for it and once in a while I'll just leave the skis at home and tear around on the sled all day. There is enough country out there for all of us. That being said, I've had talks with many skiers who do not share my views and to be honest, most of their complaints are valid and I have a hard time arguing sometimes.


Too often I hear nothing but complaints from the sled side, along with a sense of entitlement. Why cant I sled wherever I like? Who is that guy to tell me I can't ride here? What makes skiers think they own the backcountry? What you need to be asking yourselves is: what am I doing to advocate my right to ride here? Whether you want to be or not, every time you load up that sled and pull out of your shop, you are a representative of your sport from that point until you park it back in the shop. Are you driving courteously on your way to the mountains? Are you watching your language in the family restaurant where you and your 3 buddies are having dinner while wearing your sled jackets? Are you riding with a stock exhaust or did you rip it off and mount the aftermarket can that everyone in a two-mile radius can hear? Are you guzzling beer in the parking lot in plain view of that group of backcountry skiers and expecting them to know that it's your only one of the day? These things may not seem like a big deal to you, but to your average city dwelling skier it's enough for them to go back home with a story about how a group of snowmobilers ruined their ski trip, and word travels fast.


As far as the cat skiing ops go, keep in mind these guys are trying to run a business, and they are in the business of keeping their customers happy. People pay a lot of money to go on cat-ski trips, and lets face it wealthy city folk expect to be pampered and that means perfect untouched powder to ski in; that's what these outfits advertise. Repeat customers keep them in business so that cat operator telling you to go ride somewhere else is not trying to be an azzhole, he's just trying to protect his livelihood just like you would if some enviro-greenies tried to shut down your drilling rig or pipeline. Lastly, it's the cat ski outfit that is paying to groom and maintain those access trails so unless there is a snowmobile club that is pitching in to help cover those costs (and you are a member or contributor to that club) then the operator has every right to be pissed about snowmobilers poaching his access. I've said this before, sledding is the sport that has the target on its back. Unfair? Absolutely, but like it or not that's the way it is. The only way it's going to change is if every sledder asks "what am I doing to better the image of this sport?," not once in a while, but every time they pull that sled out of the shop.

Great post. Many of the points in it have been highlighted before re: how we represent our sport. The reality is this is the situation we face until we start improving the image. The difference in this issue and some others though, is that a cat ski operation (business you speak of) is making profit off public land. Sledders are not there to turn a profit. Yes the cat ski guys groom the trails, they need them anyway for their skiing, so its not like they are building them specifically for sledders.

Its hard to feel sorry for them when every year there are more and more of them popping up, making gobs of profit off the public backcountry, tenuring public land and then trying to remove access. The reality for them is that they are using a public resource to make their private profit - so there needs to be some give from their end, especially at the price margin they're pushing and the square acreages they are covering.

Sure, everyone, including high paying city folks, want fresh pow, but why does it have to fresh tracks on a new slope every run? Sledders manage to track out an area until its completely covered, the same should apply. If they cannot guarantee "fresh" because you are using a public resource, then don't make those claims. Don't remove access to a public resource to keep a promise you already made on your brochure in July.....We pay just as good money for machines, parts, hotels, meals etc. Often times we pay a lot more and work a lot harder to access an area than jumping in a heli or snow cat. Sledders have given too much already.

 

[JaySimon]

Just to play devils advocate, don't oil companies reap many dollars off our public lands and resources and privatise them?

I ski first, and sled second, and frankly, have not had an issue with either groups in my years of doing so. Provided everyone is courteous, everyone can have a great day. Besides, if the snow is stable enough, I want to ski stuff that a sled won't be able to access.