Scotty
Active VIP Member
Good post Maxwell...... who is that Guy? 
FALLOUT: Avalanche-Turbo March 13,2010
- Thread starter SLEDBUNNYRACING
- Start date
OverBore
Active VIP Member
Sledbunny,
Your post is great. But, I would like to make a request. Please stop living in the past when you won a race on a 670 -S platform. You are a supper powerfull MOD but get over the past and live in the present.
You know, I have been in the middle of the BIS for the last 5 years.
Most of All the locations that I was at were at a reasonably safe location.
Taking the avy training, and going to the last BIS (2009), I generally thought the locations were pretty safe.
Turbo hill, a big hill, and I remember being there when some of the best pokes at that hill were accomplished. It was something to see. Sleds rolling, flying, flipping, crashing... it was all too entertaining.
That being said, I thought to myself....."(you know the thrill of seeing these fellas defy the odds if gravity and showing a spectacular performance)" I probably would have been in the thick of the bunch, checking out the IRON, BS'ing with the riders...ETC....
I feel lucky I wasn't there.
You can look back, like I have and see what you could have done with this situation, but yes, like mentioned before... hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20.
I really think now from what I have read it was a " MAN THERE ARE SOME SLEDS HEADING TO TURBO..... THIS WILL BE AWESOME! WE CAN"T MISS THIS!!" situation, and a lot less " GEE I hope they dig a pit and see what this hill has for instabilities"... Human nature.
That late in the day, you just want to see more, and hope your day would never end. For those who have never been to the BIS, you would not know what I mean. It, at it's prime was "DA CHIT!!"
In a nutshell, I think it was just a collage of errors, overpowered by a "force" that had a sad ending.
Most of All the locations that I was at were at a reasonably safe location.
Taking the avy training, and going to the last BIS (2009), I generally thought the locations were pretty safe.
Turbo hill, a big hill, and I remember being there when some of the best pokes at that hill were accomplished. It was something to see. Sleds rolling, flying, flipping, crashing... it was all too entertaining.
That being said, I thought to myself....."(you know the thrill of seeing these fellas defy the odds if gravity and showing a spectacular performance)" I probably would have been in the thick of the bunch, checking out the IRON, BS'ing with the riders...ETC....
I feel lucky I wasn't there.
You can look back, like I have and see what you could have done with this situation, but yes, like mentioned before... hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20.
I really think now from what I have read it was a " MAN THERE ARE SOME SLEDS HEADING TO TURBO..... THIS WILL BE AWESOME! WE CAN"T MISS THIS!!" situation, and a lot less " GEE I hope they dig a pit and see what this hill has for instabilities"... Human nature.
That late in the day, you just want to see more, and hope your day would never end. For those who have never been to the BIS, you would not know what I mean. It, at it's prime was "DA CHIT!!"
In a nutshell, I think it was just a collage of errors, overpowered by a "force" that had a sad ending.
All reports thus far indicate it was a very deep debris field. How in the world were there no deep burials? With that many victims involved, how is it everyone was fortunate enough to stay relatively shallow? I've read how victims reported being lifted up when the slide hit them. Was the snow dense enough that it acted more like a plow instead of engulfing people or rolling over them?
Bails
Active VIP Member
Ok, trying to preach to people that this was no accident and telling them that your way of thinking is the right way won't work. Your not going to change their opinion, just like they are not going to change yours. People are all different which is good cause it would be boring if we were all cut from the same mold. People will just have to agree to disagree . You can argue that we can't move on until this is decided. But it will never be decided, one point of view won't change the other. We are just beating a dead horse arguing this. The thing that we all agree on is that we need to learn from this and educate ourselfs more to avoid another incident of this nature for our community. (THIS IS WHAT IS IMPORTANT)
Zacs
Supporting Vendors
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2006
- Messages
- 278
- Reaction score
- 137
- Location
- Too far from the mountains!
- Website
- www.zacstracs.com
Just gotta add something here. Promise to be short!
Please remember, riding avy savvy doesn't mean we can't make steep and technical climbs.
Give me the sled to do it and I'll give those high horsepower guys a run for their money!!
I'm like a jockey...I'm lightweight already!
When the powder is deep, the sky is blue, and the group's having fun it can take a lot of will power to stick to your guns and keep the safety margin wide enough. I'm no saint. I've cut it pretty thin a few times and not saying I won't mess up some day. Considering how many days that we ride and come home without incident it is pretty easy to get comfortable with familiar riding areas and let our guard down.
One of our challenges as sledders is that we cover ground so fast. The huge variation in terrain and conditions that we can travel through in a day boggles the minds of the non-motorized avy professionals that I have learned from. Another challenge is the lack of communication as we're traveling. It can be a serious challenge to keep a group safe if we're not ALL on the same page when we leave the trucks. I can't imagine trying to influence a large group during tricky avalanche conditions.
While our sleds can get us into trouble pretty quick, they can also be a very useful tool to help keep us safe. Sleds can give us lots of info about the snow if we know what we're looking for and sleds give us tons of choices regarding terrain.
I've read a few posts about people giving up climbing or giving up the sport. That is not at all the message that the avalanche industry wants people to hear. Keep the sled. The sport is well worth it!
To find an instructor near your community check out the CAC website.
CAC website - conditions and courses
--------------
...well, its a shorter post than the last one!
Please remember, riding avy savvy doesn't mean we can't make steep and technical climbs.
Give me the sled to do it and I'll give those high horsepower guys a run for their money!!
I'm like a jockey...I'm lightweight already!
When the powder is deep, the sky is blue, and the group's having fun it can take a lot of will power to stick to your guns and keep the safety margin wide enough. I'm no saint. I've cut it pretty thin a few times and not saying I won't mess up some day. Considering how many days that we ride and come home without incident it is pretty easy to get comfortable with familiar riding areas and let our guard down.
One of our challenges as sledders is that we cover ground so fast. The huge variation in terrain and conditions that we can travel through in a day boggles the minds of the non-motorized avy professionals that I have learned from. Another challenge is the lack of communication as we're traveling. It can be a serious challenge to keep a group safe if we're not ALL on the same page when we leave the trucks. I can't imagine trying to influence a large group during tricky avalanche conditions.
While our sleds can get us into trouble pretty quick, they can also be a very useful tool to help keep us safe. Sleds can give us lots of info about the snow if we know what we're looking for and sleds give us tons of choices regarding terrain.
I've read a few posts about people giving up climbing or giving up the sport. That is not at all the message that the avalanche industry wants people to hear. Keep the sled. The sport is well worth it!
To find an instructor near your community check out the CAC website.
CAC website - conditions and courses
--------------
...well, its a shorter post than the last one!
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- Admin
- #347
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2006
- Messages
- 39,540
- Reaction score
- 14,738
- Location
- Edmonton Alberta, Canada
- Website
- www.sledbunnyracing.com
snoqueen
Active VIP Member
Just gotta add something here. Promise to be short!
Please remember, riding avy savvy doesn't mean we can't make steep and technical climbs.
Give me the sled to do it and I'll give those high horsepower guys a run for their money!! :face-icon-small-hap
I'm like a jockey...I'm lightweight already!
When the powder is deep, the sky is blue, and the group's having fun it can take a lot of will power to stick to your guns and keep the safety margin wide enough. I'm no saint. I've cut it pretty thin a few times and not saying I won't mess up some day. Considering how many days that we ride and come home without incident it is pretty easy to get comfortable with familiar riding areas and let our guard down.
One of our challenges as sledders is that we cover ground so fast. The huge variation in terrain and conditions that we can travel through in a day boggles the minds of the non-motorized avy professionals that I have learned from. Another challenge is the lack of communication as we're traveling. It can be a serious challenge to keep a group safe if we're not ALL on the same page when we leave the trucks. I can't imagine trying to influence a large group during tricky avalanche conditions.
While our sleds can get us into trouble pretty quick, they can also be a very useful tool to help keep us safe. Sleds can give us lots of info about the snow if we know what we're looking for and sleds give us tons of choices regarding terrain.
I've read a few posts about people giving up climbing or giving up the sport. That is not at all the message that the avalanche industry wants people to hear. Keep the sled. The sport is well worth it!
To find an instructor near your community check out the CAC website.
CAC website - conditions and courses
--------------
:face-icon-small-dis ...well, its a shorter post than the last one!
Good advice, Lori. We all let our guard down sometimes especially if we know the area well. I am guilty of that too. Sledding in the mountains is risky on any given day, we just need to minimize that risk by being well informed.
teamti
Member
Re: There is only 1 person to blame on the Revy avalanche.
It's mind-boggling that you can seriously think that. And you're not the only person who's articulated this.
It's mind-boggling that you can seriously think that. And you're not the only person who's articulated this.
Captain-sno
Active member
I was looking over the posts from LAST years BIS. Last year, it appears Zac,s traks was involved, there were also medics on the hill, and the RCMP had been alerted/informed, and seemed like there was quite a bit of preparation.
Why did that not happen this year....Lori, why did you guys not help this year, did everyone pull out because of the conditions?
Were there medics at the event on Super, Sugar and the Bull pen? Not that it would make a difference, but if some expert avy people where involved they may have been advised to not go ahead.....I know, Turbo was not involved with the BIS, but with the rest being cancelled it would have sent a different message.....if you watch guys climb the bullpen with no issues...heck Turbo should be ok...that mentality. (I am not blaming BIS here!)
Why did that not happen this year....Lori, why did you guys not help this year, did everyone pull out because of the conditions?
Were there medics at the event on Super, Sugar and the Bull pen? Not that it would make a difference, but if some expert avy people where involved they may have been advised to not go ahead.....I know, Turbo was not involved with the BIS, but with the rest being cancelled it would have sent a different message.....if you watch guys climb the bullpen with no issues...heck Turbo should be ok...that mentality. (I am not blaming BIS here!)
cobbycat
Active member
I have many views and opinions on this avy, but I will keep them to myself as I don't wish to argue with fellow sledders about something that can't be changed or redone. I just hope this terrible avalanche has opened some eyes and that these 2 "brothers" of ours, and the many before them, have not fallen in vain. RIP
This event will change the snowmobile community in many ways, some good and some bad. as far as this thread, it is bulls#&t!!! finger pointing and anger will not bring back our brothers nor silence the media/environmentalists. we need to quit arguing among ourselves, band together, and do something before the media totally destroys the sport that we all love, the sport that brought us all together here at Snow and Mud. we all know what happened at Turbo hill, and if you don't, go to an avy class or 2 and it will make sense. these slides are going to happen, period. if we don't get educated about the monster we will lose more brothers/sisters and possibly our sport, our passion, all together. so lets get our poop in a group and take the necessary steps to save our passion from going down the toilet. these steps include avy training(and practicing often), purchasing all required equipment, practicing safe sledding procedures(not leaving brain at truck), raising avy awareness, getting organized to fight for our rights as a large group, and above all, becoming the tightly wrapped community we should be. all this arguing about who/what/blame/charges is not helping us as the media is feeding off it and using it against us! lets be smart, not ignorant. if we don't get it together soon we will be told when and where we can ride, if at all, and that is not acceptable.
the views in this rant are my opinions. the opinions of a long time backcountry mountain sledder who is well educated, equiped well, has experienced avy search and body recovery, and has never (knock on wood) been in an avalanche! I could have lost a lot of friends in this avy. by the way, I was not there (BIS) for the first time since I started riding as the avy forecast was too ugly.
you can flame me or praise me, I don't care, but we must act before it is too late and we are all sitting on the couch all winter. ride smart, ride safe.
cheers
cobbycat
This event will change the snowmobile community in many ways, some good and some bad. as far as this thread, it is bulls#&t!!! finger pointing and anger will not bring back our brothers nor silence the media/environmentalists. we need to quit arguing among ourselves, band together, and do something before the media totally destroys the sport that we all love, the sport that brought us all together here at Snow and Mud. we all know what happened at Turbo hill, and if you don't, go to an avy class or 2 and it will make sense. these slides are going to happen, period. if we don't get educated about the monster we will lose more brothers/sisters and possibly our sport, our passion, all together. so lets get our poop in a group and take the necessary steps to save our passion from going down the toilet. these steps include avy training(and practicing often), purchasing all required equipment, practicing safe sledding procedures(not leaving brain at truck), raising avy awareness, getting organized to fight for our rights as a large group, and above all, becoming the tightly wrapped community we should be. all this arguing about who/what/blame/charges is not helping us as the media is feeding off it and using it against us! lets be smart, not ignorant. if we don't get it together soon we will be told when and where we can ride, if at all, and that is not acceptable.
the views in this rant are my opinions. the opinions of a long time backcountry mountain sledder who is well educated, equiped well, has experienced avy search and body recovery, and has never (knock on wood) been in an avalanche! I could have lost a lot of friends in this avy. by the way, I was not there (BIS) for the first time since I started riding as the avy forecast was too ugly.
you can flame me or praise me, I don't care, but we must act before it is too late and we are all sitting on the couch all winter. ride smart, ride safe.
cheers
cobbycat
Longhorn
Active VIP Member
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2009
- Messages
- 3,809
- Reaction score
- 415
- Location
- Medicine Hat, AB
- Website
- www.longhornenergy.ca
I'll take 'praise you'...
Great post, and I agree, but what to do to start 'banding together' in this ongoing battle. I do not ask this in a disrespectful way, truly looking to help and try to become part of the solution. I agree, Im tired of talking about it, more than enough has been said, there are many different opinions but I think in the end all any of us want is to never see this happen again...
I am on board 100% to do whatever small part I can play, just dont know what that is...
Again, great post!
Zacs
Supporting Vendors
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2006
- Messages
- 278
- Reaction score
- 137
- Location
- Too far from the mountains!
- Website
- www.zacstracs.com
Good question. Randy & I just happened to be in Revelstoke last year a few days before the BIS. Whether the town or the club wanted it, it was pretty obvious that the BIS was going to happen. We figured it wouldn't be too much work (Lori rarely backs down from a challenge
) and gathered up a few volunteers. We ended up having to work our a$$es off for the week to meet the requirements for the forestry permit. The requirements weren't the big deal. Getting help from local resources was the tough part. We ended up reaching out to Golden and our own friends to fill in the gaps. Other than the blessing of the club and the grooming society, I believe that we satisfied the requirements. Our small group of volunteers were happy with the outcome considering the short prep time and the relative lack of volunteer assistance on the big day, but realized that we needed more buy-in from a few people and organizations before we were willing to step forward again. Buy-in wasn't happening so last fall we made a group decision to step down. No one had contacted us about this season's plans and we did not even realize that the gathering was happening until last week sometime.
Maclintock
Active member
Coppycat you must remember that last years avalanche season was the worst on record for snowmobilers. The sad day for the residents of Sparwood was the starting point where the media jumped in on this for the 1st time with HUGE coverage about the So-called dangers of the sport as they put it.
It was a similar set up as the area had 115 plus cms of snow in the past 2 days prior to that avalanche.
The area they died in was very well known for steep conditions. The victims were all said to have avalanche equipment and sledded lots.
This was also the 1st time the government of BC really looked at snowmobiling in the back country on a grand scale after 8 deaths occured and questions needed to be aswered. Then the year got steadily worse and more deaths ( A lot More) occured , 19 snowmobilers lost their lives in BC
The sad thing is a huge Avalanche is news and sometimes the media twist it up and get people riled up and then the Government gets all sorts of calls etc and this is usually to do with $$$$$$ that is needed for rescue etc and that is tax payers money. People then are Ticked. ( Joe general Public)
When governments figure that individuals or groups of individuals make poor decisions and put their lives in danger as well as others and the rescuers and volunteers who need to rescue them etc etc, and the media jumps on the bandwagon thus stirring up the tax paying constituants, then you have a problem that the Goverbnment deems necessary to fix.
Snowmobiling in the backcountry gets more people involved every year and it is like any other sport or recreation. The more people that do it, the greater the chances of mishaps goes up.
It is up to the individual to make his own deceisions, but when their are so many fatalities like last year and a very close call into a major disaster at Revy that could have been so much worse, then the government feel it is time to step in, because with all the fatalities they feel it is their duty and job to do so.
Here is an article I had sent to me from a friend. It kind of sums up where the Gov't is at with all of this at this point in time.
B.C. Solicitor General Kash Heed said Monday the province hopes to have a package of policies and regulations for off-road recreational vehicles -- including for snowmobiles operating in dangerous avalanche country -- by November 2011.
He said the package would deal with issues such as licensing, enforcement, education, as well as ways to prevent a recurrence of Saturday's tragedy at Boulder Mountain near Revelstoke in which two persons died and 30 others were injured during a known high avalanche risk.
"As you enter one of the trails there is a sign that clearly shows it's extreme conditions and the avalanche dangers. People that went into the area ignored that warning and they made the decision to actually go in there."
He added "no matter what we do as a province, it's going to be difficult for us to control and regulate" individuals who ignore such warnings. "People need to make those responsible decisions based on the experts that tell us when, in fact, it is dangerous to go in there."
Heed said he would at least consider options such as closing mountainous areas outright to public access as well as a system of fines or even billing search-and-rescue costs to those individuals who recklessly ignore warnings and put rescuers at risk.
He said if people continue to ignore avalanche warnings "we'll have to move to a different stage and do whatever we can" to ensure such fatalities do not continue to occur in B.C.
But he stressed: "B.C. has some of the best outdoor activities on Crown land. We want people to enjoy those lands and to enjoy them responsibly.
"We don't want to prohibit...that recreational activity. We want to make sure we have proper processes, regulations, and prevention in place to prevent incidents such as this tragedy on the weekend."
Heed said the coroner and RCMP continue to investigate the deaths, including those who may have been responsible for organizing the event.
The executive director of the B.C. Snowmobile Federation said snowmobilers have a personal right to ignore avalanche warnings and shouldn't be subject to more regulation.
"Right now it's personal choice," Les Austin said in an interview from Revelstoke. "I don't believe there needs to be greater regulation. We need greater education and stuff like that so people can make better-informed decisions. That doesn't happen overnight."
Karl Klassen, public avalanche bulletins manager for the Canadian Avalanche Centre, said that within the past month, a snowmobiler broke his back during another avalanche at Boulder Mountain and was flown out by helicopter for medical treatment.
"It's not a slope that is benign by any stretch of the imagination," he said. "Local people who have sledded here for a long time know that slope produces avalanches."
A coroner's service review panel report in December 2009 into 19 snowmobile deaths - including eight men from Sparwood who went into the backcountry despite a "considerable risk" of avalanche -- made 15 recommendations. They ranged from the need for avalanche training specific to snowmobiles to educational materials to improved signage.
The Canadian Avalanche Centre published a report in 2009 entitled The Year of Sledding Dangerously in which operations manager John Kelly expressed his extreme frustration with a segment of the snowmobiling community that ignores avalanche warnings.
Kelly concluded in his report: "We do feel an appetite for action from our connections within government and from the public at large.
"So we can say one thing for certain -- change will come in some form. I think we know enough about the prevailing societal mood to know that if change does not come through stakeholder and community action, it will be imposed by the public interest."
Klassen confirmed it is frustrating to see people continue to put themselves -- and those who would rescue them -- at risk.
While he cannot say whether all snowmobilers, including families with children, fully appreciated the avalanche risk Saturday, he can say that it is everyone's responsibility to be informed about conditions before heading out into the backcountry.
"Certainly for those of us who are aware it seems patently obvious."
He added it can be difficult to get the message out to people who have never experienced the fury of an avalanche.
"It's not real until it actually happens, even for people highly educated about avalanches and highly aware. I've heard many many times, 'I know you taught me in class, I know you showed me pictures and videos, but when that thing hit me, I could not believe it, how powerful it was, how difficult it was to escape, and how helpless I was when I was caught in it.'"
Klassen said the centre does not take a position on regulations, but did stress the need to make a connection with those groups -- snowmobilers or skiers -- taking the greatest risk.
"There is work to be done on increasing the culture of awareness among certain user groups that go into the backcountry. With the snowmobiling crowd, figure out what's the language, what's the terminology, what kind of message will they actually listen to."
Regardless of the level of avalanche warning, a snowmobiler travelling fast and far on a heavy machine is at greater risk of causing an avalanche than a backcountry skier.
"Snowmobilers are out there being exposed to more terrain more often than skiers," Klassen said.
Austin said his federation is a member of the Canadian Avalanche Centre and has worked hard to educate B.C.'s 130,000 snowmobilers about avalanche hazards.
"We're doing everything we can possibly do to provide as much educational outreach material for people," he said. "We're stepping it up as much as we possibly can."
Austin noted that more sledders are taking avalanche training and have the rescue gear, although a certain percentage still ignore the warnings.
Of Saturday's event, he said: "Every one of them made that personal choice. These are all personal decisions people made to go to something like that. The warnings were definitely up.
"If I go riding with my friends I make sure they've all got the [avalanche rescue] equipment and know how to use it. It's my decision if I climb the hill or do whatever. It's their personal decision to do the same."
And what of the time, cost and personal risk associated with rescue efforts for snowmobilers who get into trouble after ignoring avalanche warnings?
"You're right," he said. "We appreciate all the rescue efforts because without all those people this thing could have been worse than it was."
lpynn@vancouversun.com[/COLOR]
It is weird that you never here about Snow mobile and alcohol related deaths in this country. And their have been way more than avalanche related deaths.
In 2009/10 alone (this includes this year so far) their were a total of 64 snowmobile related casualties in Canada. 23 of those were Avalanche victims. Of the other 41, 35 were alcohol related.
Sorry about the extra huge post.
But in closing, you are right that it is up to each of us to be educated and to use that education to the best of our ability by making proper choices as well as to use every tool at our disposal to help us in making the right decisions.
People make mistakes and that is sad, but hopefully we all learn from each of these events as sad as they are and make the safest decisions we can when we are out their.
Be Safe Out Their!
It was a similar set up as the area had 115 plus cms of snow in the past 2 days prior to that avalanche.
The area they died in was very well known for steep conditions. The victims were all said to have avalanche equipment and sledded lots.
This was also the 1st time the government of BC really looked at snowmobiling in the back country on a grand scale after 8 deaths occured and questions needed to be aswered. Then the year got steadily worse and more deaths ( A lot More) occured , 19 snowmobilers lost their lives in BC
The sad thing is a huge Avalanche is news and sometimes the media twist it up and get people riled up and then the Government gets all sorts of calls etc and this is usually to do with $$$$$$ that is needed for rescue etc and that is tax payers money. People then are Ticked. ( Joe general Public)
When governments figure that individuals or groups of individuals make poor decisions and put their lives in danger as well as others and the rescuers and volunteers who need to rescue them etc etc, and the media jumps on the bandwagon thus stirring up the tax paying constituants, then you have a problem that the Goverbnment deems necessary to fix.
Snowmobiling in the backcountry gets more people involved every year and it is like any other sport or recreation. The more people that do it, the greater the chances of mishaps goes up.
It is up to the individual to make his own deceisions, but when their are so many fatalities like last year and a very close call into a major disaster at Revy that could have been so much worse, then the government feel it is time to step in, because with all the fatalities they feel it is their duty and job to do so.
Here is an article I had sent to me from a friend. It kind of sums up where the Gov't is at with all of this at this point in time.
B.C. Solicitor General Kash Heed said Monday the province hopes to have a package of policies and regulations for off-road recreational vehicles -- including for snowmobiles operating in dangerous avalanche country -- by November 2011.
He said the package would deal with issues such as licensing, enforcement, education, as well as ways to prevent a recurrence of Saturday's tragedy at Boulder Mountain near Revelstoke in which two persons died and 30 others were injured during a known high avalanche risk.
"As you enter one of the trails there is a sign that clearly shows it's extreme conditions and the avalanche dangers. People that went into the area ignored that warning and they made the decision to actually go in there."
He added "no matter what we do as a province, it's going to be difficult for us to control and regulate" individuals who ignore such warnings. "People need to make those responsible decisions based on the experts that tell us when, in fact, it is dangerous to go in there."
Heed said he would at least consider options such as closing mountainous areas outright to public access as well as a system of fines or even billing search-and-rescue costs to those individuals who recklessly ignore warnings and put rescuers at risk.
He said if people continue to ignore avalanche warnings "we'll have to move to a different stage and do whatever we can" to ensure such fatalities do not continue to occur in B.C.
But he stressed: "B.C. has some of the best outdoor activities on Crown land. We want people to enjoy those lands and to enjoy them responsibly.
"We don't want to prohibit...that recreational activity. We want to make sure we have proper processes, regulations, and prevention in place to prevent incidents such as this tragedy on the weekend."
Heed said the coroner and RCMP continue to investigate the deaths, including those who may have been responsible for organizing the event.
The executive director of the B.C. Snowmobile Federation said snowmobilers have a personal right to ignore avalanche warnings and shouldn't be subject to more regulation.
"Right now it's personal choice," Les Austin said in an interview from Revelstoke. "I don't believe there needs to be greater regulation. We need greater education and stuff like that so people can make better-informed decisions. That doesn't happen overnight."
Karl Klassen, public avalanche bulletins manager for the Canadian Avalanche Centre, said that within the past month, a snowmobiler broke his back during another avalanche at Boulder Mountain and was flown out by helicopter for medical treatment.
"It's not a slope that is benign by any stretch of the imagination," he said. "Local people who have sledded here for a long time know that slope produces avalanches."
A coroner's service review panel report in December 2009 into 19 snowmobile deaths - including eight men from Sparwood who went into the backcountry despite a "considerable risk" of avalanche -- made 15 recommendations. They ranged from the need for avalanche training specific to snowmobiles to educational materials to improved signage.
The Canadian Avalanche Centre published a report in 2009 entitled The Year of Sledding Dangerously in which operations manager John Kelly expressed his extreme frustration with a segment of the snowmobiling community that ignores avalanche warnings.
Kelly concluded in his report: "We do feel an appetite for action from our connections within government and from the public at large.
"So we can say one thing for certain -- change will come in some form. I think we know enough about the prevailing societal mood to know that if change does not come through stakeholder and community action, it will be imposed by the public interest."
Klassen confirmed it is frustrating to see people continue to put themselves -- and those who would rescue them -- at risk.
While he cannot say whether all snowmobilers, including families with children, fully appreciated the avalanche risk Saturday, he can say that it is everyone's responsibility to be informed about conditions before heading out into the backcountry.
"Certainly for those of us who are aware it seems patently obvious."
He added it can be difficult to get the message out to people who have never experienced the fury of an avalanche.
"It's not real until it actually happens, even for people highly educated about avalanches and highly aware. I've heard many many times, 'I know you taught me in class, I know you showed me pictures and videos, but when that thing hit me, I could not believe it, how powerful it was, how difficult it was to escape, and how helpless I was when I was caught in it.'"
Klassen said the centre does not take a position on regulations, but did stress the need to make a connection with those groups -- snowmobilers or skiers -- taking the greatest risk.
"There is work to be done on increasing the culture of awareness among certain user groups that go into the backcountry. With the snowmobiling crowd, figure out what's the language, what's the terminology, what kind of message will they actually listen to."
Regardless of the level of avalanche warning, a snowmobiler travelling fast and far on a heavy machine is at greater risk of causing an avalanche than a backcountry skier.
"Snowmobilers are out there being exposed to more terrain more often than skiers," Klassen said.
Austin said his federation is a member of the Canadian Avalanche Centre and has worked hard to educate B.C.'s 130,000 snowmobilers about avalanche hazards.
"We're doing everything we can possibly do to provide as much educational outreach material for people," he said. "We're stepping it up as much as we possibly can."
Austin noted that more sledders are taking avalanche training and have the rescue gear, although a certain percentage still ignore the warnings.
Of Saturday's event, he said: "Every one of them made that personal choice. These are all personal decisions people made to go to something like that. The warnings were definitely up.
"If I go riding with my friends I make sure they've all got the [avalanche rescue] equipment and know how to use it. It's my decision if I climb the hill or do whatever. It's their personal decision to do the same."
And what of the time, cost and personal risk associated with rescue efforts for snowmobilers who get into trouble after ignoring avalanche warnings?
"You're right," he said. "We appreciate all the rescue efforts because without all those people this thing could have been worse than it was."
lpynn@vancouversun.com[/COLOR]
It is weird that you never here about Snow mobile and alcohol related deaths in this country. And their have been way more than avalanche related deaths.
In 2009/10 alone (this includes this year so far) their were a total of 64 snowmobile related casualties in Canada. 23 of those were Avalanche victims. Of the other 41, 35 were alcohol related.
Sorry about the extra huge post.
But in closing, you are right that it is up to each of us to be educated and to use that education to the best of our ability by making proper choices as well as to use every tool at our disposal to help us in making the right decisions.
People make mistakes and that is sad, but hopefully we all learn from each of these events as sad as they are and make the safest decisions we can when we are out their.
Be Safe Out Their!
sledhead2010
Active member
Not wishing for anything, but the snowmobiling community needs to come together quickly and come up with solutions to the issues or there will be no more snowmobiling in the mountains or it will just be a perk of the rich and famous.
Is training the end all be all of solutions, nope.
In provinces such as Saskatchewan snowmobile safety training is mandatory for riding on public land and trails all ready starting at a certain age.
But I predict very soon the insurance industry will become the key factor to the snowmobile industry, if we keep it up watch for it to become very difficult if not impossible to insure certain snowmobiles and very expensive to insure others. Same as the sport bikes.
Zacs
Supporting Vendors
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2006
- Messages
- 278
- Reaction score
- 137
- Location
- Too far from the mountains!
- Website
- www.zacstracs.com
Yep, me again...as we have been on this bandwagon a long time here are some of our thoughts.
Feedback is certainly welcome. Cost vs. benefit....which ideas might be the most effective?
Yes, I am an avalanche instructor, however my passion comes from being a snowmobiler that wants unregulated access to the backcountry and from being a sappy mom and wife that wants return trips for all sledders. Anyone that has attended our programs would probably agree...(on the sappy part at least!)
Education and better access to resources won't lead to zero deaths, but it can't hurt to try. Pretty small investment for our community that has the potential for a pretty big gain.
Support Candles to Remember.
Follow this link:
This is a fundraiser initiated by Sherry Waldroff (Beck). Sherry lost her father and a close friend in two separate avalanches last season. Funds raised will go to the Canadian Avalanche Center (CAC) to support snowmobile specific programs.
ACT QUICKLY as this fundraiser wraps up on March 26, 2010.
Purchase candles or forward cash donations. Be sure to designate your donations under your local snowmobile club or dealership or as a Snowandmud member. There are prizes for the group that raises the most money.Businesses and individuals can donate to the Canadian Avalanche Foundation and receive a tax deductible receipt.
Canadian Avalanche Foundation
Encourage local dealers and manufacturers to support the Canadian Avalanche Center. The CAC is a non-profit that relies on donations to top up the funds it receives from the Federal and Provincial gov'ts that support them. The CAC is seriously underfunded right now.
Impress upon your MLA or MP the importance of increased Fed. and Prov. support to the CAC. The CAC office is overloaded and understaffed to develop and deliver the programming that they are capable of. They are awesome people with huge hearts and lots of great ideas that simply don't have the resources to do more.
Encourage dealer and manufacturer support of local avy classes. Some dealers and clubs that we worked with last season helped to advertise and promote the courses, offered classroom space for free, offered course discounts or money cards to the participants.
Encourage dealers to send staff to avy classes...even if they aren't sledders. Snowmobile sales and service staff are in a great position to communicate the value of avy training. Besides, wouldn't you rather buy avy equipment from someone who actually knows how to use it?!
Encourage dealers and clubs to display Avy brochures and Course Schedules in their shops, cabins and trailbooths. These are available from the CAC or your local avy instructors.
Encourage dealers, hotels and snowmobile clubs to post the CAC Avalanche Bulletins and brochures on a regular basis.
Encourage snowmobile clubs to do a beacon check of all sledders heading up the trail. Every little opportunity to educate unaware riders is important.
Encourage sledders to access avalanche training classes that include a hands-on field component. Hands-on training is needed to really 'get it'. Sticking your nose in the snow, checking out terrain and completing rescue scenarios with your riding group is key.
Stay current with refreshers and advanced avy classes. Techniques change and avy resources change...stay current. And the USE IT! Awareness is one thing, implementing it is another. Truly, small changes in our riding habits can may HUGE changes in the level of risk that we need to expose ourselves to.
Upcoming programs that I am familiar with:
AST 1
Other instructors that work with sledders.
Before heading up the trail head or when grouping up with some new riders, ALWAYS do a beacon check. Make a different group member do it each time. You'd be surprised how many guys will have trouble getting their beacon into search mode.
During lunch, or while waiting for white-out conditions to clear, take advantage of the downtime and bury a few beacons to test your friends.
Pass this link around to snowmobilers that are looking for more avy websites and online resources.
Links to avy info
Consider signing up for Zac's newsletters. Check out some of the archived issues and sign up if you find them useful.
Zac's Tracs newsletters
Share photos with the CAC or avy instructors. Snowmobile terrain (simple, challenging, complex...all kinds of riding areas. These pics do not need to include avalanches.)
Also send photos of recent avys, wind effects, unusual weather or snow conditions...
Sled specific photos improve courses and teaching materials for everyone.
Send pics to Lori's Email
Send pics to the CAC Forecasters
Post these photos on the forums as well. Be sure to include a short description. Leave out the names if you want to protect your secret riding areas!
Sign up as a Facebook fan
Zac's Tracs - Facebook
www.avalanche.ca/sled - Facebook
We haven't quite gotten the handle on Facebook yet...but I'm sure my 10 y.o. daughter will catch me up to speed over the summer! :d
Longhorn
Active VIP Member
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2009
- Messages
- 3,809
- Reaction score
- 415
- Location
- Medicine Hat, AB
- Website
- www.longhornenergy.ca
Thanks so much for the input...Great ideas here! Will be doing some major research in the next few days/weeks based on your suggestions.
One question, and please dont take this the wrong way, I understand that you guys cover a major amount of material and knowledge, but is there any way that the Avy Course could be shortened? This is truly one of the ONLY comlaints that I have heard from fellow sledders. I know your course is highly recommended by everyone I have talked to, yet so many seem reluctant to give up sledding days to take it...
I work in the 'patch' where training and 'tickets' are the king, mandatory in most if not all cases, and we struggle so much with 'unticketed' workers. So many do not want to give up some extra time to help ensure that they return home safe each night. We have seen that if courses can be condensed, we have had some better response, so in that light, just wondering if there are any options on your course.
Thanks again
One question, and please dont take this the wrong way, I understand that you guys cover a major amount of material and knowledge, but is there any way that the Avy Course could be shortened? This is truly one of the ONLY comlaints that I have heard from fellow sledders. I know your course is highly recommended by everyone I have talked to, yet so many seem reluctant to give up sledding days to take it...
I work in the 'patch' where training and 'tickets' are the king, mandatory in most if not all cases, and we struggle so much with 'unticketed' workers. So many do not want to give up some extra time to help ensure that they return home safe each night. We have seen that if courses can be condensed, we have had some better response, so in that light, just wondering if there are any options on your course.
Thanks again
Yep, me again...as we have been on this bandwagon a long time here are some of our thoughts.
Feedback is certainly welcome. Cost vs. benefit....which ideas might be the most effective?
Yes, I am an avalanche instructor, however my passion comes from being a snowmobiler that wants unregulated access to the backcountry and from being a sappy mom and wife that wants return trips for all sledders. Anyone that has attended our programs would probably agree...(on the sappy part at least!)
Education and better access to resources won't lead to zero deaths, but it can't hurt to try. Pretty small investment for our community that has the potential for a pretty big gain.
Support Candles to Remember.
Follow this link:
This is a fundraiser initiated by Sherry Waldroff (Beck). Sherry lost her father and a close friend in two separate avalanches last season. Funds raised will go to the Canadian Avalanche Center (CAC) to support snowmobile specific programs.
ACT QUICKLY as this fundraiser wraps up on March 26, 2010.Purchase candles or forward cash donations. Be sure to designate your donations under your local snowmobile club or dealership or as a Snowandmud member. There are prizes for the group that raises the most money.
Businesses and individuals can donate to the Canadian Avalanche Foundation and receive a tax deductible receipt.
Canadian Avalanche Foundation
Encourage local dealers and manufacturers to support the Canadian Avalanche Center. The CAC is a non-profit that relies on donations to top up the funds it receives from the Federal and Provincial gov'ts that support them. The CAC is seriously underfunded right now.
Impress upon your MLA or MP the importance of increased Fed. and Prov. support to the CAC. The CAC office is overloaded and understaffed to develop and deliver the programming that they are capable of. They are awesome people with huge hearts and lots of great ideas that simply don't have the resources to do more.
Encourage dealer and manufacturer support of local avy classes. Some dealers and clubs that we worked with last season helped to advertise and promote the courses, offered classroom space for free, offered course discounts or money cards to the participants.
Encourage dealers to send staff to avy classes...even if they aren't sledders. Snowmobile sales and service staff are in a great position to communicate the value of avy training. Besides, wouldn't you rather buy avy equipment from someone who actually knows how to use it?!
Encourage dealers and clubs to display Avy brochures and Course Schedules in their shops, cabins and trailbooths. These are available from the CAC or your local avy instructors.
Encourage dealers, hotels and snowmobile clubs to post the CAC Avalanche Bulletins and brochures on a regular basis.
Encourage snowmobile clubs to do a beacon check of all sledders heading up the trail. Every little opportunity to educate unaware riders is important.
Encourage sledders to access avalanche training classes that include a hands-on field component. Hands-on training is needed to really 'get it'. Sticking your nose in the snow, checking out terrain and completing rescue scenarios with your riding group is key.
Stay current with refreshers and advanced avy classes. Techniques change and avy resources change...stay current. And the USE IT! Awareness is one thing, implementing it is another. Truly, small changes in our riding habits can may HUGE changes in the level of risk that we need to expose ourselves to.
Upcoming programs that I am familiar with:
AST 1
Other instructors that work with sledders.
Before heading up the trail head or when grouping up with some new riders, ALWAYS do a beacon check. Make a different group member do it each time. You'd be surprised how many guys will have trouble getting their beacon into search mode.
During lunch, or while waiting for white-out conditions to clear, take advantage of the downtime and bury a few beacons to test your friends.
Pass this link around to snowmobilers that are looking for more avy websites and online resources.
Links to avy info
Consider signing up for Zac's newsletters. Check out some of the archived issues and sign up if you find them useful.
Zac's Tracs newsletters
Share photos with the CAC or avy instructors. Snowmobile terrain (simple, challenging, complex...all kinds of riding areas. These pics do not need to include avalanches.)
Also send photos of recent avys, wind effects, unusual weather or snow conditions...
Sled specific photos improve courses and teaching materials for everyone.
Send pics to Lori's Email
Send pics to the CAC Forecasters
Post these photos on the forums as well. Be sure to include a short description. Leave out the names if you want to protect your secret riding areas!
Sign up as a Facebook fan
Zac's Tracs - Facebook
www.avalanche.ca/sled - Facebook
We haven't quite gotten the handle on Facebook yet...but I'm sure my 10 y.o. daughter will catch me up to speed over the summer! :d
LORI
YOU just keep doing what you do. As you would say some of your post ARE long winded, But much more intresting the some of the Drama here. MOST of us love your NO BS attitude Keep up the Great work
Darcy S
Innisfail
[Yep, me again...as we have been on this bandwagon a long time here are some of our thoughts.
Feedback is certainly welcome. Cost vs. benefit....which ideas might be the most effective?
Yes, I am an avalanche instructor, however my passion comes from being a snowmobiler that wants unregulated access to the backcountry and from being a sappy mom and wife that wants return trips for all sledders. Anyone that has attended our programs would probably agree...(on the sappy part at least!)
Education and better access to resources won't lead to zero deaths, but it can't hurt to try. Pretty small investment for our community that has the potential for a pretty big gain.
Support Candles to Remember.
Follow this link:
This is a fundraiser initiated by Sherry Waldroff (Beck). Sherry lost her father and a close friend in two separate avalanches last season. Funds raised will go to the Canadian Avalanche Center (CAC) to support snowmobile specific programs.
Businesses and individuals can donate to the Canadian Avalanche Foundation and receive a tax deductible receipt.
Canadian Avalanche Foundation
Encourage local dealers and manufacturers to support the Canadian Avalanche Center. The CAC is a non-profit that relies on donations to top up the funds it receives from the Federal and Provincial gov'ts that support them. The CAC is seriously underfunded right now.
Impress upon your MLA or MP the importance of increased Fed. and Prov. support to the CAC. The CAC office is overloaded and understaffed to develop and deliver the programming that they are capable of. They are awesome people with huge hearts and lots of great ideas that simply don't have the resources to do more.
Encourage dealer and manufacturer support of local avy classes. Some dealers and clubs that we worked with last season helped to advertise and promote the courses, offered classroom space for free, offered course discounts or money cards to the participants.
Encourage dealers to send staff to avy classes...even if they aren't sledders. Snowmobile sales and service staff are in a great position to communicate the value of avy training. Besides, wouldn't you rather buy avy equipment from someone who actually knows how to use it?!
Encourage dealers and clubs to display Avy brochures and Course Schedules in their shops, cabins and trailbooths. These are available from the CAC or your local avy instructors.
Encourage dealers, hotels and snowmobile clubs to post the CAC Avalanche Bulletins and brochures on a regular basis.
Encourage snowmobile clubs to do a beacon check of all sledders heading up the trail. Every little opportunity to educate unaware riders is important.
Encourage sledders to access avalanche training classes that include a hands-on field component. Hands-on training is needed to really 'get it'. Sticking your nose in the snow, checking out terrain and completing rescue scenarios with your riding group is key.
Stay current with refreshers and advanced avy classes. Techniques change and avy resources change...stay current. And the USE IT! Awareness is one thing, implementing it is another. Truly, small changes in our riding habits can may HUGE changes in the level of risk that we need to expose ourselves to.
Upcoming programs that I am familiar with:
AST 1
Other instructors that work with sledders.
Before heading up the trail head or when grouping up with some new riders, ALWAYS do a beacon check. Make a different group member do it each time. You'd be surprised how many guys will have trouble getting their beacon into search mode.
During lunch, or while waiting for white-out conditions to clear, take advantage of the downtime and bury a few beacons to test your friends.
Pass this link around to snowmobilers that are looking for more avy websites and online resources.
Links to avy info
Consider signing up for Zac's newsletters. Check out some of the archived issues and sign up if you find them useful.
Zac's Tracs newsletters
Share photos with the CAC or avy instructors. Snowmobile terrain (simple, challenging, complex...all kinds of riding areas. These pics do not need to include avalanches.)
Also send photos of recent avys, wind effects, unusual weather or snow conditions...
Sled specific photos improve courses and teaching materials for everyone.
Send pics to Lori's Email
Send pics to the CAC Forecasters
Post these photos on the forums as well. Be sure to include a short description. Leave out the names if you want to protect your secret riding areas!
Sign up as a Facebook fan
Zac's Tracs - Facebook
www.avalanche.ca/sled - Facebook
We haven't quite gotten the handle on Facebook yet...but I'm sure my 10 y.o. daughter will catch me up to speed over the summer! :d[/QUOTE]
YOU just keep doing what you do. As you would say some of your post ARE long winded, But much more intresting the some of the Drama here. MOST of us love your NO BS attitude Keep up the Great work
Darcy S
Innisfail
[Yep, me again...as we have been on this bandwagon a long time here are some of our thoughts.
Feedback is certainly welcome. Cost vs. benefit....which ideas might be the most effective?
Yes, I am an avalanche instructor, however my passion comes from being a snowmobiler that wants unregulated access to the backcountry and from being a sappy mom and wife that wants return trips for all sledders. Anyone that has attended our programs would probably agree...(on the sappy part at least!)
Education and better access to resources won't lead to zero deaths, but it can't hurt to try. Pretty small investment for our community that has the potential for a pretty big gain.
Support Candles to Remember.
Follow this link:
This is a fundraiser initiated by Sherry Waldroff (Beck). Sherry lost her father and a close friend in two separate avalanches last season. Funds raised will go to the Canadian Avalanche Center (CAC) to support snowmobile specific programs.
ACT QUICKLY as this fundraiser wraps up on March 26, 2010.
Purchase candles or forward cash donations. Be sure to designate your donations under your local snowmobile club or dealership or as a Snowandmud member. There are prizes for the group that raises the most money.Businesses and individuals can donate to the Canadian Avalanche Foundation and receive a tax deductible receipt.
Canadian Avalanche Foundation
Encourage local dealers and manufacturers to support the Canadian Avalanche Center. The CAC is a non-profit that relies on donations to top up the funds it receives from the Federal and Provincial gov'ts that support them. The CAC is seriously underfunded right now.
Impress upon your MLA or MP the importance of increased Fed. and Prov. support to the CAC. The CAC office is overloaded and understaffed to develop and deliver the programming that they are capable of. They are awesome people with huge hearts and lots of great ideas that simply don't have the resources to do more.
Encourage dealer and manufacturer support of local avy classes. Some dealers and clubs that we worked with last season helped to advertise and promote the courses, offered classroom space for free, offered course discounts or money cards to the participants.
Encourage dealers to send staff to avy classes...even if they aren't sledders. Snowmobile sales and service staff are in a great position to communicate the value of avy training. Besides, wouldn't you rather buy avy equipment from someone who actually knows how to use it?!
Encourage dealers and clubs to display Avy brochures and Course Schedules in their shops, cabins and trailbooths. These are available from the CAC or your local avy instructors.
Encourage dealers, hotels and snowmobile clubs to post the CAC Avalanche Bulletins and brochures on a regular basis.
Encourage snowmobile clubs to do a beacon check of all sledders heading up the trail. Every little opportunity to educate unaware riders is important.
Encourage sledders to access avalanche training classes that include a hands-on field component. Hands-on training is needed to really 'get it'. Sticking your nose in the snow, checking out terrain and completing rescue scenarios with your riding group is key.
Stay current with refreshers and advanced avy classes. Techniques change and avy resources change...stay current. And the USE IT! Awareness is one thing, implementing it is another. Truly, small changes in our riding habits can may HUGE changes in the level of risk that we need to expose ourselves to.
Upcoming programs that I am familiar with:
AST 1
Other instructors that work with sledders.
Before heading up the trail head or when grouping up with some new riders, ALWAYS do a beacon check. Make a different group member do it each time. You'd be surprised how many guys will have trouble getting their beacon into search mode.
During lunch, or while waiting for white-out conditions to clear, take advantage of the downtime and bury a few beacons to test your friends.
Pass this link around to snowmobilers that are looking for more avy websites and online resources.
Links to avy info
Consider signing up for Zac's newsletters. Check out some of the archived issues and sign up if you find them useful.
Zac's Tracs newsletters
Share photos with the CAC or avy instructors. Snowmobile terrain (simple, challenging, complex...all kinds of riding areas. These pics do not need to include avalanches.)
Also send photos of recent avys, wind effects, unusual weather or snow conditions...
Sled specific photos improve courses and teaching materials for everyone.
Send pics to Lori's Email
Send pics to the CAC Forecasters
Post these photos on the forums as well. Be sure to include a short description. Leave out the names if you want to protect your secret riding areas!
Sign up as a Facebook fan
Zac's Tracs - Facebook
www.avalanche.ca/sled - Facebook
We haven't quite gotten the handle on Facebook yet...but I'm sure my 10 y.o. daughter will catch me up to speed over the summer! :d[/QUOTE]
I took the course with Zac's Tracs 2 years ago. I believe it was like 3 hours or so at night 3-4 nights, then 1 full day on the hill. It's not that long, you only miss 1 day of riding, and it is so worth it. I likely will do it again next year for a good refresher.
Anyone who cannot miss 1 day of riding to take a course that might one day save their life, or one of their riding partners needs to get their priorities in order.
Anyone who cannot miss 1 day of riding to take a course that might one day save their life, or one of their riding partners needs to get their priorities in order.
merv jennett
Active member
i think in the tragect event that took place in revy we do not need to point fingers at anyone as this was an act of mother nature & no one can predict what was to happen & yes we all know the dangers of mountain riding & yes we have been educated to know that avalanches do happen. sometimes we disobay signs just like on the highway every body drives by signes that say 100 klms per hour but we are doing 130klms per hour so i would have to say that everybody is guilty of disobaying the rules. just my thoughts. merv
Similar threads
