Ethanol Killing small engines?

[Hillbilly64]

First off let me say I am no mechanic but here are some things I have been told about ethanol in gas.


My story dates back to last year when I needed to take my snowmobile into a dealer because it would not run properly.
When I picked it up, I was told the problem was a build up of mould in the carburetors caused by ethanol in the gas. The repair costs were over 300$. I asked the dealer how many machines they had repaired with similar problems, the reply was over 30. That is just one dealer!
Later last spring my son was operating his snow machine when there was an engine failure.
I picked up the machine from the repair facility this past weekend. Repair bill cost? 2250.67$
Reason for engine failure? Ethanol in the gas had separated, this caused the engine to " lean out" since there is no lubrication of any type in straight ethanol, the engine piston became damaged. The engine cylinder and head were also damaged beyond repair.
The repair man told me that just in his shop alone, he has several snowmobiles, quads, chainsaws and boat engines all damaged due to ethanol issues.
No one is being told of this problem and most dealers will not warranty engines the "detonate" as they put it.
This is a catch all phrase for a motor that blows up for no apparent reason, the reason is becoming clear. Ethanol in gasoline is causing hundreds of thousands of dollars in repair costs for consumers with no explanation as to why these failures are occurring.
The parts dealers must be laughing at us... They are making a fortune off of this and the consumer is none the wiser.
A few enquiries on my own have shown that just a few locale dealers and repair facilities in my area have repaired well over a hundred small engine machines in the last year and a half.
Someone needs to make the public aware of this issue.
The toys we purchase for recreation already cost huge dollars and these engine failures are costing us thousands more.
I was given a bottle of Phase 4 which is supposed to keep the ethanol from separating in the tank.
14.00$ for a small bottle but better than a 2250.00$ engine rebuild!

 

[Wilk INStheWEST]

Not saying that this isn't a problem, but here is my point of view. Everything that you have brought up can be avoided. Owners of older machines may not have been aware of this problem, as ethanol in fuel is a relatively new thing, and if you purchased your machine before this was common practice, you may not have been advised of it by your dealer.
'Detonate' is not a catch all phrase for a motor that blows up for no reason. When the fuel spontaneously ignites early (due to heat and compression, not the spark plug) in the combustion cycle, it is called detonation, or knocking. This then leads to engine failure because it is putting extra stresses on the motor by causing the explosion in the cylinder at the wrong time (Engine knocking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), generally when the piston is still coming up. This happens more readily in an engine that is running fuel with ethanol in it. Higher octane fuels have a higher resistance to detonation. Ethanol does have a higher octane rating, but it has a lower energy value, so more fuel is required to get the same energy. This can lean out the air/fuel mixture and lead to detonation. Many newer small engines are designed to run on fuel that contains ethanol, but it's better to run ethanol free fuel in small engines that have high compression ratios. I only purchase Shell 91 octane fuel for my toys, because it is the only 91 octane fuel that still doesn't contain ethanol. Petro Canada uses ethanol to increase the octane in their Ultra 94, so don't use that either.
As far as the ethanol separating out in the fuel, this doesn't happen overnight. If you aren't planning on going through the tank of gas in a relatively short amount of time (a couple weeks), you should probably be putting fuel stabilizer in their to keep the fuel from separating.

 

[Moose]

I had heard from some guys...whether its true or not, im not sure, ethanol will collect 10% of its weight in water. most regular fuels today advertise 10% ethanol, if u figure out over 100L that's 1L of water that could be absorbed.

 

[DaveB]

only purchase Shell 91 octane fuel for my toys, because it is the only 91 octane fuel that still doesn't contain ethanol.

Right there is the key. I have ran Shell 91 in every small engine for years and years and never had a fuel-related problem.

 

[Hillbilly64]

All good points. I will point out however that depending on where you are sledding ( for example) you may not have access to gas without ethanol.
I guess my intention was to get the word out that this can and does happen to all types of engines.
Lots of my stuff on the farm is run on farm gas and some stuff not used for months. I learned a very expensive lesson on this with the sons sled, which did have non- farm gas in it.

 

[moyiesledhead]

'Detonate' is not a catch all phrase for a motor that blows up for no reason. When the fuel spontaneously ignites early (due to heat and compression, not the spark plug) in the combustion cycle, it is called detonation, or knocking.

Nope. That's pre-ignition. Detonation always happens after the spark.

Engine Basics: Detonation and Pre-Ignition: Streetrod Stuff

 

[Wilk INStheWEST]

All good points. I will point out however that depending on where you are sledding ( for example) you may not have access to gas without ethanol.
I guess my intention was to get the word out that this can and does happen to all types of engines.
Lots of my stuff on the farm is run on farm gas and some stuff not used for months. I learned a very expensive lesson on this with the sons sled, which did have non- farm gas in it.

That's why I always make sure I have a few jerry cans full of Shell 91 with me when I go sledding. Granted I don't take many trips longer than a couple days, so I can easily manage with that.

Nope. That's pre-ignition. Detonation always happens after the spark.

Engine Basics: Detonation and Pre-Ignition: Streetrod Stuff

I knew that, and when I was writing this, I was actually confusing myself. Apparently I don't run well on ethanol and 4 hrs of sleep either. That makes more sense why the Ethanol setting on the Polaris engines retards the timing. Either way, it's two explosions in the cylinder, one happening when is shouldn't be.

 

[Joholio]

What would happen if you ran 87 reg gas in etec 800? Would a code flash on the screen?

 

[d mills]

What would happen if you ran 87 reg gas in etec 800? Would a code flash on the screen?

I've ran reg in mine a few times when I had too..............didn't notice any difference at all. But i don't make a habit of it.

 

[Joholio]

I've ran reg in mine a few times when I had too..............didn't notice any difference at all. But i don't make a habit of it.

I won't admit to anything until warranty is up. ;-))

 

[Wilk INStheWEST]

What would happen if you ran 87 reg gas in etec 800? Would a code flash on the screen?

You will likely only get a code if detonation occurs. It's not certain that it will occur, but running 87 octane just increases the odds of it happening.

 

[Joholio]

What additives could/have other people used? Mixing with AV100, C12, 111 etc...I use a bit of seafoam in almost everything and will be trying out VP's Accelerator shortly.

 

[Hillbilly64]

What additives could/have other people used? Mixing with AV100, C12, 111 etc...I use a bit of seafoam in almost everything and will be trying out VP's Accelerator shortly.

The guy that repaired my engine suggested a product called Phase 4. It is supposed to keep the ethanol from separating in the tank.

 

[52weekbreak]

The attached link will help you find ethanol free fuel from different stations across the country. Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

 

[Bullseye]

I have ALWAYS been a Shell "Gold" guy for years ......burn it all my small motors (motorcycle,quad,lawnmowers,etc) and at least every 3rd tank in my truck and car. BUT a few weeks ago I tried Petro Canada's "Ultra 94" and got a really good tank out of my truck (great mileage). So I filled my jerry-can up with "Ultra 94" and now been filling stuff up as I need it (snowblower,quad,etc)...............NOW I got to rethink this since reading this post !! P.S. I hate ethanol.... guess I should have read up on it before using it !!

 

[DaveB]

I have ALWAYS been a Shell "Gold" guy for years ......burn it all my small motors (motorcycle,quad,lawnmowers,etc) and at least every 3rd tank in my truck and car. BUT a few weeks ago I tried Petro Canada's "Ultra 94" and got a really good tank out of my truck (great mileage). So I filled my jerry-can up with "Ultra 94" and now been filling stuff up as I need it (snowblower,quad,etc)...............NOW I got to rethink this since reading this post !! P.S. I hate ethanol.... guess I should have read up on it before using it !!

Ya, you gotta be careful. Your truck is designed to run ethanol (probably even that E85 crap) but small engines are NOT.

 

[pfi572]

Right there is the key. I have ran Shell 91 in every small engine for years and years and never had a fuel-related problem.

Same as Dave and never had any trouble. Have a 3000 L tank that I fill every spring with Shell premium due to best price and no problems through the years.
A bit more $ but I think cheaper in the long run.

 

[moyiesledhead]

I knew that, and when I was writing this, I was actually confusing myself. Either way, it's two explosions in the cylinder, one happening when is shouldn't be.

Ya, the difference between detonation and pre-ignition is actually really confusing. The link I posted there is the best one I've ever found to explain it.