etecheaven
Active VIP Member
cheers to SRA. I hope I never need you, but its reassuring that if I ever have to hit the SOS on my inreach, you will be there.
Revelstoke Search and Rescue Call out Saturday Night on Sale
- Thread starter climbmax
- Start date
pano-dude
Active VIP Member
there has been numerous threads on here about what to have in your pack, how to ride responsibly, be aware of your surroundings when in the mountains but it took a near death experience for you to figure it out.
This topic will be brought up over and over because guys have the attitude of "it won't happen to me"
I'm glad you survived because nobody deserves to die because of a mistake but it happens. The mountains are not a place to take chances unless you are prepared for the consequences.
Id like to hear from the group who was involved, maybe it will deter another group from making the same mistake.
geo
Active member
I don't mind posting on an open forum that there is less skill out in the mountains today. I don't mean high marking skills or Burant skills. I'm talking about sledding skills and winter skills (I think that is called back country skills today). It's a huge difference from the past which why the S&R has become more than just a couple of guys riding back for more help.
Every year I get asked by some group or two how to get back to someplace. Sheesh 101 or what. Every year I ride with someone on a 163 that got it stuck and sat there waiting for help. sometimes I even see panic yet 4 or 5 min tutorial and voila your out. Sheesh 101.1 or what.
It's not about lack of common sense. It's about a lack of skills because of experience. These new sleds might keep you from needing any help (and learning the need for help sometimes) or even experiencing a stuck or a breakdown for maybe a couple of years.
Many on this thread may have never ridden a 121 in the mountains let alone a 1/2" track. It's a very good tool to teach these skills. Everyone should start on a 121 440 fan with open carbs.
First thing you learn is sleds can get stuck if you leave the trail. Second thing you learn is you may need help to get unstuck. Third thing you learn after the first two is to keep your buddies in sight. Fourth thing you learn is they don't always stay running and your glad your more experienced bud has the tools and parts. Thank him for the chocolate bar too.
Fifth thing you learn is you get stuck more than once. After 10 or 20 stucks you start to learn by watching the help and you get unstuck for the first time yourself. Congradulations, you just finished your first day.
On your second day you practise these skills alot and appreciate your group more. On the third day you get cocky and pay the price but within sight of your group. On the fourth day you start to carry tools and food and change your own belt. On the fifth day you start to break trail and take apart your own carbs and realize this is all about the fun of extremes.
5 day crash course on the necessary skills to go out and play and respect that the mountain is bigger than you. No high-marking skills yet. No tree riding skills yet. These skills are not near as important as what you learned in your first 5 days.
I'm sure there are a few on here that learned this way. Probably feel the same way as me about these new sleds, "how can you get that stuck without trying to?" and about experience, "why did you go down there by yourself?".
I'm all about calling a spade a spade. Even if the S&R guys love their calls, there is too many today simply because of lack of skills.
Every year I get asked by some group or two how to get back to someplace. Sheesh 101 or what. Every year I ride with someone on a 163 that got it stuck and sat there waiting for help. sometimes I even see panic yet 4 or 5 min tutorial and voila your out. Sheesh 101.1 or what.
It's not about lack of common sense. It's about a lack of skills because of experience. These new sleds might keep you from needing any help (and learning the need for help sometimes) or even experiencing a stuck or a breakdown for maybe a couple of years.
Many on this thread may have never ridden a 121 in the mountains let alone a 1/2" track. It's a very good tool to teach these skills. Everyone should start on a 121 440 fan with open carbs.
First thing you learn is sleds can get stuck if you leave the trail. Second thing you learn is you may need help to get unstuck. Third thing you learn after the first two is to keep your buddies in sight. Fourth thing you learn is they don't always stay running and your glad your more experienced bud has the tools and parts. Thank him for the chocolate bar too.
Fifth thing you learn is you get stuck more than once. After 10 or 20 stucks you start to learn by watching the help and you get unstuck for the first time yourself. Congradulations, you just finished your first day.
On your second day you practise these skills alot and appreciate your group more. On the third day you get cocky and pay the price but within sight of your group. On the fourth day you start to carry tools and food and change your own belt. On the fifth day you start to break trail and take apart your own carbs and realize this is all about the fun of extremes.
5 day crash course on the necessary skills to go out and play and respect that the mountain is bigger than you. No high-marking skills yet. No tree riding skills yet. These skills are not near as important as what you learned in your first 5 days.
I'm sure there are a few on here that learned this way. Probably feel the same way as me about these new sleds, "how can you get that stuck without trying to?" and about experience, "why did you go down there by yourself?".
I'm all about calling a spade a spade. Even if the S&R guys love their calls, there is too many today simply because of lack of skills.
Kyle91rs
Active VIP Member
Sure there are countless threads on here about that stuff, but I can guarentee you I don't read every thread or every post made on this site. What about the people who aren't members of s&m or snowest ? How will they get their information?? Pfft. Look, say what you want about my accident, I'm not gonna sit here and defend my actions because I know I made mistakes, but I learned from them. THATS what I'm trying to say. I'm not perfect, I could have easily avoided that with the right training, the situation could have been easier with the right tools in hand, but I can guarentee you I won't be making that mistake again. I learned from my mistake through helpful people on this forum, not the ACTUAL retards who try to act tough on the Internet and make judgement calls without even knowing the full extent of the situation.
I don't believe anyone volunteers for SAR and complains they have to go rescue another moron. They do it because they want to help people that obviously need it.
I think there are people that are prepared for this but once they find themselves in a situation and it's not just a discussion or a list on a forum, panic can set in.
If you find yourself out of options then that is what an Inreach or a Spot is for. Stuff happens and it's good to know we have an excellent SAR community in Canada.
Having said that, once you know you're in serious trouble, what is the sense with moving at all except to find shelter. If you don't know the area, then there's a better chance you'll get into more trouble than getting yourself out.
I think there are people that are prepared for this but once they find themselves in a situation and it's not just a discussion or a list on a forum, panic can set in.
If you find yourself out of options then that is what an Inreach or a Spot is for. Stuff happens and it's good to know we have an excellent SAR community in Canada.
Having said that, once you know you're in serious trouble, what is the sense with moving at all except to find shelter. If you don't know the area, then there's a better chance you'll get into more trouble than getting yourself out.
For all you guys thinking you will just press your SPOT/INReach whatever, did you stop to think what happens if its not working, can't get a signal, etc etc? What if it does work but its a serious snowstorm and the chopper can't fly, or its night time and you can't see any land marks to guide ground rescuers? Do you know how to light a fire with no matches/survival kit/firestarter/or dry wood, only your sled? Yes its possible! Not being a forum member is not an excuse, get some backcountry experience before you go out to the backcountry. If your employer wanted you to do something dangerous, you'd make damn sure they gave you the proper training before you started, but when it comes to their personal safety, most people can't be bothered to put any effort in until its their ass on the line. Folks are happy to reach for their sat phone or other technology when they need to be saved, but can't use that same tech to do research or prep before hand. Having a smart phone don't make you a smart guy.
First rule when you are lost or stranded - STOP MOVING. Easier to find a stationary target than a moving one. Other thing is you will still probably be semi-close to your buddies at this point, every step you take could be one more step away from them. If you drop down something, the moment you think your group is in trouble, stop, and start levelling a turnaround pad and start walking a run up trail (yes by foot if you have to.....I know I know this means you might have to get off your sled..) to go back where you came from. Get it good and long as possible. Ideally before you have to walk a trail back up - Always pack a good trail on your way down, cuz you never know what you're gonna have to re-climb and you might have a dead sled behind you or a passenger.
First rule when you are lost or stranded - STOP MOVING. Easier to find a stationary target than a moving one. Other thing is you will still probably be semi-close to your buddies at this point, every step you take could be one more step away from them. If you drop down something, the moment you think your group is in trouble, stop, and start levelling a turnaround pad and start walking a run up trail (yes by foot if you have to.....I know I know this means you might have to get off your sled..) to go back where you came from. Get it good and long as possible. Ideally before you have to walk a trail back up - Always pack a good trail on your way down, cuz you never know what you're gonna have to re-climb and you might have a dead sled behind you or a passenger.
Excellent post Modman! Fully agree with you. The other point I would make is "beware of the last hour of the day"....at this point most of us are tired and are more prone to making poor decisions while also having diminished skills. Is it really the time to try that new short cut with darkness coming on? Is it time to drop down one more level assuming all can get out without a mechanical or worse yet an injury? Or is it time to regroup and start back while you can still see. I've wrecked more parts and had extended "unplanned camping" due to not giving the last hour of the day the respect it demands. For those who can't remember changing jets on a freezing mountainside this a key learning, sure was for me! Saves S&R calls too.
late afternoon on sleds sure sees more people making mistakes. and yes I call them mistakes.
every time it snows how many people crash their cars ... mistakes ???
I still laugh at lildukes story about the guys on good sleds last year that got stuck and wouldn't take his help getting back to the cabin that wasn't very far away. they said S&R was coming. lilduke said have fun camping out tonight.
that sums it up ...
but we all make mistakes and have sh!t go wrong ...
every time it snows how many people crash their cars ... mistakes ???
I still laugh at lildukes story about the guys on good sleds last year that got stuck and wouldn't take his help getting back to the cabin that wasn't very far away. they said S&R was coming. lilduke said have fun camping out tonight.
that sums it up ...
but we all make mistakes and have sh!t go wrong ...
Excellent advice.
Teach yourself before **** happens, just like training at work. Everything I posted on page 4 we taught ouselves through reading, booking our own classes. We did not wait to do post mortoms on bad ideas. Be proactive and teach/help yourself before you have to call for help.
I do not have a lot of sorrow for the "gas and go crowd", a little suffering may be good for the soul as long as they make a full recovery so they learn to look after themselves. No I am not wishing evil on anyone but,"Ididn't know" gets old after a while.
I am glad that there is S&R for when unforseen **** happens like when a rock is hiding under the powder or loss of control introduces you to a tree at speed.
For all those in construction that know what a PSI/Start Card/FLHA is fill one out THOROUGHLY on the hill just once.
I am not kidding - do it - just once for an overnight mishap, once will probably be enough.
That crap they try to teach you at work is usefull at home also.
Play safe, go home safe!
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Lund
Active VIP Member
Here is food for thought for all the one's that are good at scrutinizing.
Wonder how many of you ACTUALLY carry a map and compass of a given area. Actually KNOW how to use it and won't go into the back country without it.
HAHAHA,
NO true bushman will go into the back country without map and compass. The military still uses them, SAR's uses them. Yes we also use electronic's but map and compass is alway's 100% reliable.....if you know how to use it.
Electronic's are great, but they are unreliable, give a false sense of security but hell they are sure fun to play with. LOL
There are alot of peep's posting thing's like "first step this", "the first step that" in going mountain riding. What about if your serious about backcountry travel, getting backcountry survival training.
Most of you have spent huge money on sled's, avy gear, avy courses, electronic gadget's but i'm willing to say most all of you never been through a basic wilderness survival course.......LOL......BTW they do (the basic's) teach you how to use a compass and a map, haha
Wonder how many of you ACTUALLY carry a map and compass of a given area. Actually KNOW how to use it and won't go into the back country without it.
HAHAHA,
NO true bushman will go into the back country without map and compass. The military still uses them, SAR's uses them. Yes we also use electronic's but map and compass is alway's 100% reliable.....if you know how to use it.
Electronic's are great, but they are unreliable, give a false sense of security but hell they are sure fun to play with. LOL
There are alot of peep's posting thing's like "first step this", "the first step that" in going mountain riding. What about if your serious about backcountry travel, getting backcountry survival training.
Most of you have spent huge money on sled's, avy gear, avy courses, electronic gadget's but i'm willing to say most all of you never been through a basic wilderness survival course.......LOL......BTW they do (the basic's) teach you how to use a compass and a map, haha
maxwell
Active VIP Member
Sorry but there is always multiple People in my group with Gps I'll take the chance that multiple gps will fail before carrying a compass and a map.
Lund
Active VIP Member
Good thing we have SARS eh, lol
4 things that never leave my pack:
1) Compass
2) First Aid Kit
3) Avy gear (clinometer, snow crystal card, microscope lens, thermometer, wire, saw, probe, shovel etc)
4) Bottle of water
I typically print out the maps of where we're going if its unfamiliar and usually the maps of any tenures or closed areas around as well. We do use GPS but I do know how to use my compass, just used it the other day. Its a skill anyone should know, not just for backcountry travel. Backcountry survival/wilderness training is great and I agree that most should have it, but backcountry sledding requires different skills as well IMO. Knowing how to build a survival shelter is one thing, knowing how to pack a proper trail or perform a sled self-extraction by using a rope wrapped around the track as a winch line is a skill that they won't teach you in basic survival training. The skills you learn from others in backcountry sledding can hopefully keep you from needing the real survival skills like shelter building.
maxwell
Active VIP Member
Lol!!! I will do my absolute best to never have to use them even without a compass
FernieHawk
Active VIP Member
What is this rope wrapped around the track as a winch line you speak of...sounds like a technique I should be aware of.
giddyup
Active VIP Member
We took a short rope between the spindles witha look in the middle to guide the rope, you take the rope and tie it through the windows of the track across from each other. Attach the other end of rope to stationary object. As u use the sleds power to slowly rotate the track. The rope winds around the track like a spool and slowly you. Can extract the sled from a deep hole, you still need to help the sled alone. But you have to be prepaired with enough rope or strap.
Kinda similar to posted above. Hook a small rope or ratchet strap through the windows of the track in one pitch (across the track). Get a long rope and tie one end to stationary object, then hook rope to the middle of the small rope on the track (this will keep the long rope in the middle of the track when u r winching). Start sled and use track to "winch" sled forward (or backward) using track as winch "motor". You can get yourself out of sticky situations with it, it won't "lift" your sled straight up but lets say you ended up nose down in a treewell, you could hook the rope to a tree behind you, hook the rope to the track and put your sled in reverse and winch it backwards. Recommended that you pack down the trail you are winching on (so you are not trying to winch a sled through 3 ft of powder), just minimize as much drag resistance as you can. Try not to ride the sled unless you have to, usually can walk beside it and just work the throttle.
You can also use this method to winch a dead sled out of a tight spot, like down in a little draw or something, or if you have to tow a dead sled up a steep hill. Tie a running sled to a tree (or multiple sleds together if no trees around), then tie 1 end of long rope to bumper of dead sled and other end to track of the running sled (as described above). Tip running sled on its side and use the running sled to winch dead sled out of the problem area. You might have to stop and reset a couple times (so make sure you have a "brakeman" ready at the dead sled when you unhook it or it will go back down......LOL), depending on the length of rope you have or the area the sled is in, but it does work. This method usually requires a long rope sometimes but if you get some "mule tape" its super light and strong, works great for things like this. You will still have to shovel a little "path" to winch the sled out on, but cheaper than calling in air support. Also, watch the front bumper on the "winch" sled if that is what you tie to the tree or other sleds, as you can bend some of these new flimsy ones. Not a big deal but just might take some additional "rigging" to keep it from bending. With both methods you have to watch the winch rope and keep it on the track, otherwise it doesn't work so good. Hopefully I've explained it well enough you get the point.
Good tip Modman! Highlights the need to at least have some decent rope. Usually for towing out a sled, but occasionally for lowering a couple sleds straight down a steep frozen waterfall at the end of a beautiful gully that kept going down and down with the sides getting steeper, and steeper.... That was when I was young and dumb, just older now. LOL!
Lund
Active VIP Member
We do a lot of different call's through out the year, winter and summer. Hunting season, fishing season and everything in between. We go out for boater's, hiker's, backpacker's, atv rider's and sledder's. Any sort of out door back country activity, if some one need's help we can be there.
Sledder's are not unique and pretty much every call's though differ's in emergency and situation, they all have a similar tune to them. LACK of KNOWLEDGE.
I know this is not going to be a very popular message and NO i'm not painting all sledder's as many are well prepared, well trained and knowledgeable for back country travel.
But in most all back country activities such as, sledding, hiking and backpacking, atv and off road bikes, back country skiing, hunting and fishing just to name a few. The motorized activities are the worst and sledding is not an exception to it, as back country snowmobiling has some of the most expensive and dangerous call's for our member's in the interior of BC.
To add to this, we also see lack of etiquette and good back country knowledge and preparedness among the sledding community.
Compared to other wilderness and back country activities we in the sledding community have a long way's to go in the education area, when it come's to back country smart's.
Point is if you can afford a new sled and all the gear for back country riding with an avy course or two, please do us all a favor at S&R, take at least a winter survival course. Well worth it and lots of fun.
Sledder's are not unique and pretty much every call's though differ's in emergency and situation, they all have a similar tune to them. LACK of KNOWLEDGE.
I know this is not going to be a very popular message and NO i'm not painting all sledder's as many are well prepared, well trained and knowledgeable for back country travel.
But in most all back country activities such as, sledding, hiking and backpacking, atv and off road bikes, back country skiing, hunting and fishing just to name a few. The motorized activities are the worst and sledding is not an exception to it, as back country snowmobiling has some of the most expensive and dangerous call's for our member's in the interior of BC.
To add to this, we also see lack of etiquette and good back country knowledge and preparedness among the sledding community.
Compared to other wilderness and back country activities we in the sledding community have a long way's to go in the education area, when it come's to back country smart's.
Point is if you can afford a new sled and all the gear for back country riding with an avy course or two, please do us all a favor at S&R, take at least a winter survival course. Well worth it and lots of fun.
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