Bombardier to outsource jobs as it seeks bailout from Ottawa

Summitric

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The transportation giant’s proposal to shift assembly of wings and cockpits for the turboprop planes to facilities in Mexico and China, respectively, would eliminate about 200 jobs at the suburban Toronto factory where those components are assembled now, sources familiar with the situation say.
A proposal by the company to outsource wing and cockpit production was rejected by workers at the Toronto plant in October, but Bombardier has not given up on the idea. “They are still determined to offload the wing and the cockpit to Mexico and China,” said one source familiar with the discussions.
Such a move could prove hugely awkward for the federal government, which is studying a request by Bombardier for a $1-billion (U.S.) investment in its C Series plane program to match a deal struck with Quebec. The company is trying to shore up more financial resources for the new aircraft to take it to projected break-even in 2020-21. It plans to build between 15 and 20 C Series planes this year.
Bombardier wants Ottawa to come on board as a strategic partner in the C Series, and has found itself at the centre of a heated national debate on the merits of receiving public money. At the same time, it is trying to cut costs in many areas of its operations, which will help it rebuild earnings after two straight annual losses.
“The optics aren’t good when they’re asking for that kind of money from the Liberals,” said Scott McIlmoyle, president of Unifor Local 112, which represents the workers at the Bombardier Q400 plant.
“Of course it looks bad,” said Chris Murray, an analyst with AltaCorp Capital in Toronto. “But it’s a responsible thing to do for them to look at how to cut costs on the supply chain.”
A spokeswoman for Bombardier’s commercial aircraft unit did not respond to a request for comment.
Bombardier has had trouble over the past year winning new orders for commercial and business aircraft, which has hurt both revenue and profitability. At a list price of about $31-million (U.S.), the Q400 has a particular problem in that it is an estimated 20 per cent to 30 per cent more expensive than rival aircraft made by European joint venture ATR.
Although Canadian carriers such as Porter Airlines Inc. and WestJet Airlines Ltd. have embraced the Q400, Bombardier has largely failed to persuade customers outside North America to pay more for the extra speed, size and technology that the aircraft offers. It is now trying to remedy that situation.
“This is a company that’s generally proven to be very astute in dealing with governments,” said Louis Hébert, a specialist in corporate strategy at Montreal’s HEC business school. That they’re proposing this, on top of plans announced last month to lay off 2,800 workers in Canada, “shows just how grave the situation is,” Prof. Hébert said.
Bombardier’s contract with Unifor contains language declaring that the wing and cockpit assembly belongs to the Toronto plant, so the company needs the union’s approval before shifting the work. About 70 per cent of workers who voted in October rejected the idea. Mr. McIlmoyle said management told the union leadership that the entire Q400 program and about 1,000 jobs were at risk if costs were not reduced.
The company has not presented any new offers to the union since the proposal was rejected in October, he said.
In a briefing with reporters in late October, Bombardier chief executive Alain Bellemare suggested the company was still aiming to make changes to Q400 production despite the union’s stand. It’s a great aircraft but it’s too costly, he said. “We need to bring the costs down so we can bring the price down.”
Bombardier management detailed the challenges facing the Q400 at an investor-day meeting last November. Fred Cromer, who leads Bombardier’s commercial aerospace business, said that while Bombardier ought to get paid for some of the plane’s performance advantages versus the competition, airlines using the planes to fly shorter distances don’t necessarily make use of those performance advantages.
Bombardier’s production plan for the Q400 assumes it can maintain a global share of about 30 per cent for the aircraft while pushing for more. “This airplane should do much better than that against the competition,” Mr. Cromer said.
The company is already sourcing significant volumes of aircraft parts from Mexico and China.
Production at its aerospace plant in Queretaro state, north of Mexico City, includes main harnesses and electrical subassemblies for Bombardier business and commercial aircraft. The facility also has mandates to manufacture structural aircraft components, such as the Q400’s so-called “flight control work package” of rudder, elevator and horizontal stabilizer, according to Bombardier’s website.
Meanwhile, China’s Shenyang Aircraft Corp. has been supplying main components for the Q400 since a co-operation agreement was signed in 2006. The packages supplied by Shenyang represent about 12 per cent of the Q400 plane by weight, Bombardier says.
 

rightsideup

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That may not be the case JT may have gone in with the intent of saving A Canada's airplane builder now this development has come up and the union has broken the story. Either way it's a mess. The company should not have its hand out. Just curious how much the union workers make??
 

Clode

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such BS, if they can't make it in the global market it's time to shut the doors....would be nice to see the money come to the west and help the people who have lost their jobs, 2800 workers is phuck all compared to the losses in Sask, Alberta, and NE BC
 
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Cat401

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They will get their taxpayer handout....as they do every time they arrive at the public trough.

Then they will move more of the manufacturing out of Canada and blame the unions and the govt for not giving enough.....

But when 75,000 people in Alberta are out of work, our Prime Minister says "they (Albertan's) are resilient and they will get through this"....frikken a-hole!!! :rant::rant::rant:
 

rzrgade

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Yeah all the political well read idiots who voted for him are pretty bloody quiet now .....on here!
 

rightsideup

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I voted conservative during the federal election. It would have been interesting to see if Harper's gang would have impeached the witch of Alberta Ndp who got in but no one voted for? Would he have offered her an O Leary million to take off?
 

Cat401

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I voted conservative during the federal election. It would have been interesting to see if Harper's gang would have impeached the witch of Alberta Ndp who got in but no one voted for? Would he have offered her an O Leary million to take off?

We are stuck with Ms. Notley for 3 more years...and she know she has zero chance of ever being the governing party again. For some reason, politicians feel they need to leave a "legacy" so people will remember them.....she is on track to running Alberta into so much debt, and playing a major crippling the oil sands but hey, we will be investing billions into solar & wind energy before she is done....we will remember her for generations to come.......

I hope the "fine people" who voted NDP are happy with their choice......
 

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such BS, if they can't make it in the global market it's time to shut the doors....would be nice to see the money come to the west and help the people who have lost their jobs, 2800 workers is phuck all compared to the losses in Sask, Alberta, and NE BC

Ok so if BRP can't survive in the global marketplace they should get plowed under but when our oil is too expensive to extract to sell at current market value (ie. can't survive the global marketplace) that segment should get help?
 

Clode

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Ok so if BRP can't survive in the global marketplace they should get plowed under but when our oil is too expensive to extract to sell at current market value (ie. can't survive the global marketplace) that segment should get help?

are they getting help ? the fact that the east doesn't want Alberta oil (and is against infrastructure to move the oil) and would prefer to by Arab oil to refine is a joke, and when has any oil company received a gov't bailout ?

the fact remains that the Bombi gets gov't money (my money) to stay afloat all to often
 

Cat401

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Ok so if BRP can't survive in the global marketplace they should get plowed under but when our oil is too expensive to extract to sell at current market value (ie. can't survive the global marketplace) that segment should get help?

how many times should a company get bailed out before we say enough?? The Bombardier family probably has a dedicated seat at the public trough.....lol
 

Clode

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how many times should a company get bailed out before we say enough?? The Bombardier family probably has a dedicated seat at the public trough.....lol


they seem to be using gov't money as running capital and that is total fornicating bovine feces.....
 

Bnorth

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are they getting help ? the fact that the east doesn't want Alberta oil (and is against infrastructure to move the oil) and would prefer to by Arab oil to refine is a joke, and when has any oil company received a gov't bailout ?

the fact remains that the Bombi gets gov't money (my money) to stay afloat all to often

how many times should a company get bailed out before we say enough?? The Bombardier family probably has a dedicated seat at the public trough.....lol
I'm playing devils advocate here, we're not talking about how many times BRP has been bailed out we're talking about why should one industry be thrown aside while another receives handouts. Is it because one is in your backyard and affects people you know or are you making an objective decision?
 

rightsideup

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Ok so if BRP can't survive in the global marketplace they should get plowed under but when our oil is too expensive to extract to sell at current market value (ie. can't survive the global marketplace) that segment should get help?
To some degree We as voters really never get the WHOLE story the Media and off course social Media blow things up. It would really be interesting to see home many jobs Bombardier have created thru the non power sports sector and how they have been funded frankly we may never know. As far as I know since BRP has been formed(the power sports entity of the company ) it has done amazing things
 

Cat401

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I'm playing devils advocate here, we're not talking about how many times BRP has been bailed out we're talking about why should one industry be thrown aside while another receives handouts. Is it because one is in your backyard and affects people you know or are you making an objective decision?

I'm trying to be very objective.....although it's hard to be objective when our Prime Minister is involved.... If a company is in need of some help and without them, the economy can be affected....ie massive layoffs, then having some govt assistance is warranted. But I will ask again, how many times should this happen before we say enough? Bombardier has been to the trough many, many times.

The auto industry was given govt funding because their demise would have affected 1000's of employees and related companies/suppliers .....it was all paid back by the auto makers over the next few years.....good move in my opinion.

Do you remember a company called Massey Ferguson? Back in the 70's, they had a habit of undercutting the prices of other manufacturers of farm equipment. The had pretty good market share but kept asking for government money to assist them because profits were nill. Eventually the govt said, "that's all"....Massey went into receivership soon after because...simply... if you cannot make a profit, you can't be in business too long.
[Edit....I hope my statements on Massey are true...it was before my time (well I was around but real young)....I am only repeating the story as I have been told.. ]

If Bombardier constantly needs public money to stay in business, perhaps their business plan is flawed? Or perhaps not....they have received millions over the years. When is enough enough? We need to weigh the pros and cons....what is the real downside (to everyone) to let them sink or sell?
 
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Clode

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I'm playing devils advocate here, we're not talking about how many times BRP has been bailed out we're talking about why should one industry be thrown aside while another receives handouts. Is it because one is in your backyard and affects people you know or are you making an objective decision?


this downturn doesn't affect me at all for the most part, but a drive to Alberta tells a different story.....If the gov't gives Bombi money no jobs should be outsourced, plain and simple, and the other bailouts do matter, they aren't a viable company in my eyes.

the fact remains that equalization payments are still being paid to the east, the west is suffering, and yet no effort is being made to try to help the west

the liberals will help a proven failure company over approval of a pipeline to get oil to refineries to stabilize the economy of canada and remove the dependence on arab oil
 
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Bnorth

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I'm trying to be very objective.....although it's hard to be objective when our Prime Minister is involved.... If a company is in need of some help and without them, the economy can be affected....ie massive layoffs, then having some govt assistance is warranted. But I will ask again, how many times should this happen before we say enough? Bombardier has been to the trough many, many times.

The auto industry was given govt funding because their demise would have affected 1000's of employees and related companies/suppliers .....it was all paid back by the auto makers over the next few years.....good move in my opinion.

Do you remember a company called Massey Ferguson? Back in the 70's, they had a habit of undercutting the prices of other manufacturers of farm equipment. The had pretty good market share but kept asking for government money to assist them because profits were nill. Eventually the govt said, "that's all"....Massey went into receivership soon after because...simply... if you cannot make a profit, you can't be in business too long.
[Edit....I hope my statements on Massey are true...it was before my time (well I was around but real young)....I am only repeating the story as I have been told.. ]

If Bombardier constantly needs public money to stay in business, perhaps their business plan is flawed? Or perhaps not....they have received millions over the years. When is enough enough? We need to weigh the pros and cons....what is the real downside (to everyone) to let them sink or sell?

I agree it's time to decide when enough is enough. It is common for companies like Bombardier that do a ton of very expensive R&D to get subsidies but at some point they need to turn the products they've developed into profits.

Along the same lines, the retards in the east create a **** storm over Canadian content in Ketchup but happily fill there tanks with fuel made from terrorist oil.

Loblaws to re-stock French’s ketchup, made with Canadian tomatoes | Globalnews.ca

I don't get it either. Our energy policy is a joke, however, I would be afraid of oil costs if the state intervenes and says well now you need to buy this Canadian oil that costs a lot more to extract.
 

DaveB

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We are stuck with Ms. Notley for 3 more years...and she know she has zero chance of ever being the governing party again. For some reason, politicians feel they need to leave a "legacy" so people will remember them.....she is on track to running Alberta into so much debt, and playing a major crippling the oil sands but hey, we will be investing billions into solar & wind energy before she is done....we will remember her for generations to come.......

I hope the "fine people" who voted NDP are happy with their choice......
The NDP may very likely get re-elected if the right-wing vote gets split. Wildrose vs PC will only hurt us again.

But back to topic....if Bombi can't compete...let it fail. The oil industry is not asking for a handout in AB/BC/SK....we can compete. It's just hard to compete when your biggest obstacles come from within your own country. IE: anti-pipeline, anti-shipping, carbon-tax, etc.

This article posted by SmokinD says it in spades:
 
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