Forster Snow conditions

[Modman]

This is incredibly funny. No matter what, you'd better listen to these guys. They mean business! Especially when they use bad words on a thread.....well that makes it official!!!!
You know what, if you'd determined to ride on the glaciers, you should find out exactly what your rights and responsibilities before making that call. Talk to forestry. Talk to the heli ski company. Look at closure maps. Cover your ass. You'll probably find it's illegal. But you may also find that there"s nothing anyone can do about it. You may also find that it's not enforcible. I,m not sure. But make an educated decision.
But I know that i'll make my decicions based on facts and laws, and not what a couple loud mouth's tell me to do online.

I don't really know who the "loud mouth" reference is to, but most of understood the quasi-sarcastic tone the first time, just chose to ignore it.

How "sure" are you about them not being able to enforce it? If he gets a ticket are you going to pay it?

I'm "sure" they can enforce it, and the govt does - maybe you should read this thread - https://www.snowandmud.com/forum/f4/we-got-nailed-caribou-basin-5576.html make no mistake the govt watches what we do, they see tracks out of bounds and its a notch on the bedpost to close an area down.

Maybe we should all base our decisions on "facts and laws" - so here's the facts and the laws from the Forest and Range Practices Act that the Ministry enforces for those riding on the glaciers.

Section 58 states how they can protect the land.......

"Protection of recreation and range resources on Crown land
58 (1) If the minister determines that it is necessary to protect a recreation or range resource or to manage public recreation use on Crown land, he or she by order may restrict or prohibit

(a) a non-recreational use of
(i) any of the following established under the Forest Practices Code of British Columbia Act for recreation:
(A) a resource management zone;
(B) a landscape unit;
(C) a sensitive area, or
(ii) any of the following that is on Crown land:
(A) an interpretive forest site;
(B) a recreation site or recreation trail,
except any non-recreational use permitted under the Coal Act, the Mineral Tenure Act or the Oil and Gas Activities Act, or
(b) a recreational use anywhere on Crown land, except a use that is specifically permitted under another enactment.
(2) The minister may make different orders under subsection (1) for different uses and locations.
(3) The minister must post a notice of an order under subsection (1) in the area to which the order applies.
(4) Without lawful authority, a person must not remove, alter, destroy or deface a notice posted under subsection (3)."

Section 60 says they can stop you.....

"Inspection of vehicle or vessel
60 For any purpose related to the administration and enforcement of the Acts, an official or a peace officer may

(a) require a person operating a vehicle or vessel to stop the vehicle or vessel, and
(b) carry out an inspection of a vehicle or vessel,
if the official or peace officer has reasonable grounds to believe that
(d) a person is contravening or has contravened one or more provisions of the Acts."

Section 80 says they can then fine you......see bold
"Fines
87 (1) A person who contravenes section 46 (1), 52 (1) or (3) or 112 (3) commits an offence and is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $1 000 000, or to imprisonment for not more than 3 years, or to both.

(2) A person who contravenes section 21 (1), 22 (2), 29 (1) or (3) or 55 (a) commits an offence and is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $500 000, or to imprisonment for not more than 2 years, or to both.
(3) A person who
(a) contravenes section 3 (1), 8 (1), 12 (1), 15 (2), 22.1 (1), (2), (5) or (6), 26 (3) or (5), 32 (1), 38 (1), (2), (3), (4) or (5), 45 (1) or (2), 46 (1.1), 47, 48, 50 (1) or (2), 51 (1), (2) or (6), 52.1 (3), 54 (1), 63 (1) or (2), 97 (2) or 119, or
(b) does not comply with an order under section 16 (5), 26 (6), 27 (2), 51 (7) or (8), 54 (2), 57 (4), 58 (1), 66 (1), 74 (1), 77 (1) or (2) or 77.1 (1) or (2),
commits an offence and is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $100 000, or to imprisonment for not more than one year, or to both.
(4) A person who contravenes section 23 (1), 53 (1) or (2), 55 (b) or (c), 57 (1) or (3), 58 (4) or 70 commits an offence and is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $5 000 or to imprisonment for not more than 6 months, or to both.
(5) The maximum fine to which a person is liable on a second or subsequent conviction for the same offence under subsections (1) to (4) is double the amount set out in the applicable subsection.
(6) The Lieutenant Governor in Council may provide by regulation that
(a) a contravention of a regulation or standard is an offence, and
(b) a person convicted of an offence for a contravention of a regulation or standard is liable to a fine not exceeding a maximum amount, or to imprisonment not exceeding a maximum length, or to both.
(7) If the maximum fine or imprisonment provided by a regulation under subsection (6) (b) is less than that provided by a provision of this Act, the regulation prevails."

 

[popcorn popper]

I know they mean buisness and I dont ride on the glaciers! But it does bother me that when they have choppers they cannot access areas we cannot get to instead of cutting off piece by piece the areas we do have.Same thing happening in Revy at Keystone.I don't think it has as much to do with the Caribou as it does with big buisness.I guess we can sit back be quiet dont say anything a little bit sly and watch them take more and more.Sorry if I offended anyone ,but it seems the sqeaky wheels are getting the grease so maybe we should start sqeaking!

 

[mcridge]

Now thats the kind of info that people should read. Good job modman! The loudmouth reference was not to yourself. Sorry if i offended anyone i just ddn't find alot of sacrasm in the statements.....maybe i need a better sense of humor. Anyways my point was that if your going to take the risks, know your potential penalty's. Can it be enforced, i've heard both sides of the story.

 

[pano-dude]

Now thats the kind of info that people should read. Good job modman! The loudmouth reference was not to yourself. Sorry if i offended anyone i just ddn't find alot of sacrasm in the statements.....maybe i need a better sense of humor. Anyways my point was that if your going to take the risks, know your potential penalty's. Can it be enforced, i've heard both sides of the story.

It has been enforced in the past, I believe a chopper landed and handed out tickets.

 

[popcorn popper]

Now thats the kind of info that people should read. Good job modman! The loudmouth reference was not to yourself. Sorry if i offended anyone i just ddn't find alot of sacrasm in the statements.....maybe i need a better sense of humor. Anyways my point was that if your going to take the risks, know your potential penalty's. Can it be enforced, i've heard both sides of the story.

Maybe you should make yourself clear who your calling loudmouth!

 

[Modman]

I know they mean buisness and I dont ride on the glaciers! But it does bother me that when they have choppers they cannot access areas we cannot get to instead of cutting off piece by piece the areas we do have.Same thing happening in Revy at Keystone.I don't think it has as much to do with the Caribou as it does with big buisness.I guess we can sit back be quiet dont say anything a little bit sly and watch them take more and more.Sorry if I offended anyone ,but it seems the sqeaky wheels are getting the grease so maybe we should start sqeaking!

Now thats the kind of info that people should read. Good job modman! The loudmouth reference was not to yourself. Sorry if i offended anyone i just ddn't find alot of sacrasm in the statements.....maybe i need a better sense of humor. Anyways my point was that if your going to take the risks, know your potential penalty's. Can it be enforced, i've heard both sides of the story.

Guys, we are all on the same team. No offence taken from either of your posts. No one wants to lose more riding areas and no one wants to lose more riding areas to private enterprise like heli-ski operations. I'm not siding with the skiers or private industry at all!! I truly believe that crown land belongs to the people, not to some guy from Austria. There is so much terrain that helicopters can access that sleds cannot, I don't even know why we have controversy with them. Fly someplace we cannot access, its pretty simple. But that might cut into their profits......

Believe me, it pisses me off to no end. Does it suck? You bet! Would I love to rip up there and shred all their snow before they fly in? You bet, but I never will. We have to fight the good fight and not just do what we please, we have to respect their terrain, because they are the first ones to call and report us. No one ever hears about all the good things that sledders do, they only report us to the regulators and media when we do something bad.

Politicians make policy and govt bodies close areas based on public opinion. We need as much positive public opinion as we can get right now. Private industry has done a really good job of making us look bad, now we have to work on improving the public image. The best thing we can be is good ambassadors for the sport, in everything we do. Don't wash clutches in the hotel sink, don't talk like sailors in a family restaurant when there are little kids in the next booth, don't ride on the glaciers, etc etc. The family you are sitting beside at breakfast could be some head of the forestry that administers the area. We need him on our side, not against us.

Support the local clubs because these are the people keeping these areas open. We need to fight at the bureaucratic level, not on the slopes. When we have to fight it on the slopes, we've already lost because that means the policy is already written. The Radium club has fought long and hard to keep the Forster area open, amidst many black eyes from sledders taking gas past the gas drop, using the Dave White Hut, and riding on the glaciers. If we are not careful we will lose the whole area. Help educate fellow sledders about what they are jeopardizing if you see them riding out of bounds, the more sledders that understand the situation, the more sledders will join the battle and support the proper groups to keep areas open (Start the squeaking Loud and Clear Popcorn, I'm with ya!! ).

Knowledge is power folks.

 

[pano-dude]

Guys, we are all on the same team. No offence taken from either of your posts. No one wants to lose more riding areas and no one wants to lose more riding areas to private enterprise like heli-ski operations. I'm not siding with the skiers or private industry at all!! I truly believe that crown land belongs to the people, not to some guy from Austria. There is so much terrain that helicopters can access that sleds cannot, I don't even know why we have controversy with them. Fly someplace we cannot access, its pretty simple. But that might cut into their profits......

Believe me, it pisses me off to no end. Does it suck? You bet! Would I love to rip up there and shred all their snow before they fly in? You bet, but I never will. We have to fight the good fight and not just do what we please, we have to respect their terrain, because they are the first ones to call and report us. No one ever hears about all the good things that sledders do, they only report us to the regulators and media when we do something bad.

Politicians make policy and govt bodies close areas based on public opinion. We need as much positive public opinion as we can get right now. Private industry has done a really good job of making us look bad, now we have to work on improving the public image. The best thing we can be is good ambassadors for the sport, in everything we do. Don't wash clutches in the hotel sink, don't talk like sailors in a family restaurant when there are little kids in the next booth, don't ride on the glaciers, etc etc. The family you are sitting beside at breakfast could be some head of the forestry that administers the area. We need him on our side, not against us.

Support the local clubs because these are the people keeping these areas open. We need to fight at the bureaucratic level, not on the slopes. When we have to fight it on the slopes, we've already lost because that means the policy is already written. The Radium club has fought long and hard to keep the Forster area open, amidst many black eyes from sledders taking gas past the gas drop, using the Dave White Hut, and riding on the glaciers. If we are not careful we will lose the whole area. Help educate fellow sledders about what they are jeopardizing if you see them riding out of bounds, the more sledders that understand the situation, the more sledders will join the battle and support the proper groups to keep areas open (Start the squeaking Loud and Clear Popcorn, I'm with ya!! ).

Knowledge is power folks.

Well said! To be honest I don't think the heli operators are the problem in this area( it is RK heli ski tenure but way to far to fly unless the Jumbo area has no snow). The drainage is the water shed for Radium and it is the enviro guys who are really against sledders being in the area at all.

Personally I see it good and bad, good because it is a great place to ride but bad because there is potential to damage the water quality. Is it worth the risk????

There will also be a safety issue in the arguement as well, glacier travel is never a safe thing and each year at least one sled gets dropped into a crevasse.

 

[popcorn popper]

Is Forrester a tenured area or is it a caribou habitat,if it is a tenure it is like Chatter creek where they do not want sledders in there because it disturbs the ski runs,they cannot actually stop you it is just a good Idea not to.I know the owners of Chatter personally and they are good guys and it is there livelyhood and we oblige them.I think it is going to get to the point where we as sledders are going to have tenure areas for us to have and if it ends up costing everyone some trail fees so be it.As the ski ares get filled up they will expand and take up more area and the more areas they close the more the existing sled areas get congested and cause more troubles.I'm not that familiar with Forrester but we were up near the second cabin its above left of the first cabin and were takin there by locals as we did not know the area.I do,not know if this is out of bounds or not as there was no signage in this area?

 

[pano-dude]

There is a couple tenures at Forester, RK heli has one and so does Toby Creek adventures who does sled tours(not on the glacier) "Tenure" only gives you the right to charge people money to take them there(cause the gov wants their slice also)

The cabin you are referring to is the olive hut and it is a no sled zone. Anywhere above 6000' on the south west side is closed.

Is Forrester a tenured area or is it a caribou habitat,if it is a tenure it is like Chatter creek where they do not want sledders in there because it disturbs the ski runs,they cannot actually stop you it is just a good Idea not to.I know the owners of Chatter personally and they are good guys and it is there livelyhood and we oblige them.I think it is going to get to the point where we as sledders are going to have tenure areas for us to have and if it ends up costing everyone some trail fees so be it.As the ski ares get filled up they will expand and take up more area and the more areas they close the more the existing sled areas get congested and cause more troubles.I'm not that familiar with Forrester but we were up near the second cabin its above left of the first cabin and were takin there by locals as we did not know the area.I do,not know if this is out of bounds or not as there was no signage in this area?

 

[tuckerchef]

I just wanted to know how far it is to the glaciers from the parking area at forester. I'm interested in doing some kiteboarding in the area. I live in Banff and Radium area is one of the closest sledding areas to me. I'm just looking for a sled accessed area with moderate wind, good snow and no trees.

 

[pano-dude]

around 40km, and then it's an hr ski tour to access the glacier depending on your fitness.

 

[mcridge]

Yep about an 1-1.5hr to skin up from valley bottom.
Wow, i guess we got hugely side tracked on that topic. Sorry about that. I guess thats the way the forums go.
Kite boarding would be great up there! Have fun!

 

[mcridge]

Unfortunately tenures are only for commercial purposes. If we as sledders would want to secure our areas then, in my opinion, it comes down to responsible use by us, and organization.
This is the same topic which alot of other users face all over north america. 4x4's, atv's, dirt bikes, etc. We have alot of people participating in these activities but we aren't a very well organized group. So that doesn't give us very good representation when it come to fighting for our individual sports. It makes it so easy for government bodies to shut us down. We have to give credit to all the local clubs who've fought to keep areas open. They've done a great job but unfortunately do have limited budgets and probably can't afford to hire people (enviromental scientists) to do a long term study on our sports. Consequently the government has the cash (our cash) and as well organizations like the Sierra Club, have huge budgets.
Unfortunately, i wouldn't be at all surprised to see more areas shut down in the future.
Oh yeah. There is no caribou closures around forester. The nearest ones are at trout lake-silvercup ridge, and Buhl Creek around Cranbrook. You can google caribou closures b.c. snowmobiling to find out.

 

[Modman]

.....unfortunately do have limited budgets and probably can't afford to hire people (enviromental scientists) to do a long term study on our sports......

I bet you would really like to know what my job title is.....

Believe me, there are environmental scientists participating in our sport , your's truly is one. Make no mistake, I'm the biggest piston head you will find so please don't picture me as what you might think the typical "enviro scientist" looks like...

I fight in every way I can to disspell the negative impacts that others say our sport has, but unfortunately there is some truth to the rumor that the internal combustion engine burns fossil fuel.... While things are greatly improving on engine technology, we can fight all day to prove that point or to argue facts/myths about the mountain caribou habitat - in the end if someone rides up on the glacier or in a closed area, all the effort to fight all the other negativity stands for virtually nothing. We are only as good as the weakest link (or the baddest apple in our case).

Its very tiring reading these caribou reports and typing pro-sledder emails to MLAs/MPs, only to see sledders blasted on the front page the next day for doing something stupid like cutting through a locked gate to ride a closed area, etc. Kinda makes everything we have done fighting the "good" fight, meaningless (at times it seems very much this way).

There is no excuse for the behaviour of some sledders, and as I said, until we all act as ambassadors for the sport (and not as a bunch of douchebags who think we can all do what we please), then we are fighting a long uphill battle while members of our very own sport are rolling rocks down at us.

 

[twoplanker]

Later riders

 

[popcorn popper]

There is a couple tenures at Forester, RK heli has one and so does Toby Creek adventures who does sled tours(not on the glacier) "Tenure" only gives you the right to charge people money to take them there(cause the gov wants their slice also)

The cabin you are referring to is the olive hut and it is a no sled zone. Anywhere above 6000' on the south west side is closed.

Thats nice to know????Why would a local from radium take us in there??who do you trust these days!!

 

[mcridge]

WOW!!! This is great to have you on our side! This is exactly what I was talking about. I guess i shouldn't have said on our side as opposed to having someone to make our points heard, and to work with the other involved industries and interests. Thanks Modman!!!!! Much Appreciated!!!
Man, we keep getting off topic here. This thread should be titled Land Use Regs.
I know that its hard to provide to people, but I really do not see that much of an enviviromental impact difference between sleds, vs logging industry/ or aircraft industry/ or general transportation. In my mind it all comes down to dollars and cents. They more money your company/industry has....the more power you have.

 

[popcorn popper]

I bet you would really like to know what my job title is.....

Believe me, there are environmental scientists participating in our sport , your's truly is one. Make no mistake, I'm the biggest piston head you will find so please don't picture me as what you might think the typical "enviro scientist" looks like...

I fight in every way I can to disspell the negative impacts that others say our sport has, but unfortunately there is some truth to the rumor that the internal combustion engine burns fossil fuel.... While things are greatly improving on engine technology, we can fight all day to prove that point or to argue facts/myths about the mountain caribou habitat - in the end if someone rides up on the glacier or in a closed area, all the effort to fight all the other negativity stands for virtually nothing. We are only as good as the weakest link (or the baddest apple in our case).

Its very tiring reading these caribou reports and typing pro-sledder emails to MLAs/MPs, only to see sledders blasted on the front page the next day for doing something stupid like cutting through a locked gate to ride a closed area, etc. Kinda makes everything we have done fighting the "good" fight, meaningless (at times it seems very much this way).

There is no excuse for the behaviour of some sledders, and as I said, until we all act as ambassadors for the sport (and not as a bunch of douchebags who think we can all do what we please), then we are fighting a long uphill battle while members of our very own sport are rolling rocks down at us.

Yes it is good to have you aboard!Ive been hitting the mountains since 1986 and I can see a huge difference since then.My kids are going with me now and I'm trying to get them going in the right direction also.As you can read from the above post we were riding near the Olive Hut last year with locals from radium who never said a thing about being up there.In fact they were showing us shutes they regularly climb each year up there.I dont get it!I guess we should of paid better attention to signage at the start of trail at we wouldn't have been in there.Yes you are right about being ambassadors I guess I'll have to pick it up!I don't want to see anymore ares closed its getting tight as it is.

 

[oler1234]

why not get back on topic about the snow conditions??

Anyone got any recent pictures or reports of snow here??

 

[popcorn popper]

good idea