Deck Pilings

[winterulez]

Just wondering if anyone knows of a company out in the parkland area about 45 mins west of Edmonton that can drill some deck pilings. Need too put in pilings and get my deck and posts started so they can support the 10' overhang on the roof of the new house i am building. Any help is appreciated.

 

[Captjacksparrow]

I know a guy that does those new screw in pilings. They work awesome and are cheaper & faster to install than concrete pilings. They actually build houses on them they are so strong. If your interested let me know and I can get you his number.

 

[winterulez]

If you could pm me his info that would be great. Thanks

 

[Cyle]

I know a guy that does those new screw in pilings. They work awesome and are cheaper & faster to install than concrete pilings. They actually build houses on them they are so strong. If your interested let me know and I can get you his number.

In what universe is a house heavy? For the footprint, a house doesn't weight anything, they are used because of how many they put in. In most ground conditions a concrete pile is a LOT stronger.

I am not a fan of them for much. If your ground is to wet, soft, sandy, they will not hold and cannot be used, if your ground is to rocky or whatever and you can't turn them in far enough your screwed also. Or if you hit a decent size rock, your screwed. Way to many possible issues. Cost i'm not 100% sure what they cost exactly, but regular piles are only expensive if you do a few and use a truck for the concrete.

Actually got a great example of them being terrible. A mobile home park in leduc used them, 3-4 years old and they started sinking this spring. The land is wet and swampy, but the screw piles are useless.

I'm sure they'd be fine for a small deck, but I wouldn't use them for much else.

 

[gotboost]

yup what he said iam not a fan of the screw in piling and there not cheap

 

[Shortcut]

I would highly recommend using a pad and pier type foundation for support, works much better than just a pile due to the fact the pile is tied into the pad, resists uplift reactions, and provides a better bearing surface for deck&roof support. Typically an 8" deep pad, 3'x3', base at 5-6', and a 12" pile on top, pad with 4 rows of 15m bar two ways, pile with 3 15m bar bent to tie into pad. This is what I did for my deck and roof, never a problem.....remember, piles alone work on friction, and depending on soil conditions you have will factor into what size of pile and depth you need. Talk with your local building inspector to see what he will say also, typically piles alone supporting a deck and roof load require engineer's input. Hope this helps

 

[Cyle]

I would highly recommend using a pad and pier type foundation for support, works much better than just a pile due to the fact the pile is tied into the pad, resists uplift reactions, and provides a better bearing surface for deck&roof support. Typically an 8" deep pad, 3'x3', base at 5-6', and a 12" pile on top, pad with 4 rows of 15m bar two ways, pile with 3 15m bar bent to tie into pad. This is what I did for my deck and roof, never a problem.....remember, piles alone work on friction, and depending on soil conditions you have will factor into what size of pile and depth you need. Talk with your local building inspector to see what he will say also, typically piles alone supporting a deck and roof load require engineer's input. Hope this helps

I've done concrete forever and what you are explaining makes absolutely no sense. Are you parking something on your roof that you forgot to mention? Or did you build in swamp land and your whole house is on piles or something? If a engineer designed it, then I would know why it was like that though and makes no sense. It's a frigging deck, you don't need a engineer. The roof on a house weights nothing. A 10"x10' pile will carry a LOT of weight unless your in terrible ground. My advice, spend the money you'd pay a engineer and put it into making overkill on the project, you'll end up a lot further ahead.

I would take a contractor of 20 years advice long before i'd take a engineer of 20 years advice. Just look around the city, you can see a lot of the great engineers creations that supposedly know something No offence to any engineers some are ok, but most ain't got a clue!

 

[Longhorn]

In what universe is a house heavy? For the footprint, a house doesn't weight anything, they are used because of how many they put in. In most ground conditions a concrete pile is a LOT stronger.

I am not a fan of them for much. If your ground is to wet, soft, sandy, they will not hold and cannot be used, if your ground is to rocky or whatever and you can't turn them in far enough your screwed also. Or if you hit a decent size rock, your screwed. Way to many possible issues. Cost i'm not 100% sure what they cost exactly, but regular piles are only expensive if you do a few and use a truck for the concrete.

Actually got a great example of them being terrible. A mobile home park in leduc used them, 3-4 years old and they started sinking this spring. The land is wet and swampy, but the screw piles are useless.

I'm sure they'd be fine for a small deck, but I wouldn't use them for much else.

What are you comparing to?? You cannot say a concrete pile is stronger than a screw pile without laying out some numbers here...

Some other MAJOR differences, a screw pile can be engineered for 'uplift' where a concrete pile carries about 5-10% uplift unless it is a bell pile. Screw piles can are are engineered and can be installed with an engineering spec based on the torque applied to the pile. Another major advantage is that screw piles or driven piles can be installed at an angle or even horizontal, try that with concrete...

Each has their place, but just because you know concrete, does not mean you know Jack about screw piles. Residential construction, I would agree perhaps screw piles may not have as many advatages because you would not install the volume of piles to make it advantageous, but in industrial and oilfield construction, very few concrete piles.

I can drive steel piles for about a quarter of the cost of a concrete pile, and have them in the ground and cut to height before you could load up the sonotube...just sayin...

Both have their place, but saying there are all these issues is just not true...

 

[OVERKILL 19]

A pile is only as good as the guy who drilled the hole.....how many times I've seen guys drill a hole for a pile and leave 2 feet of fluff dirt in the bottom of the hole then pour concrete on top of it! Kind of defetes the purpose! IMO

What do u call a pile. I've always poured a footing at the bottom so it is locked in... so to speak.

 

[Cyle]

What are you comparing to?? You cannot say a concrete pile is stronger than a screw pile without laying out some numbers here...

Some other MAJOR differences, a screw pile can be engineered for 'uplift' where a concrete pile carries about 5-10% uplift unless it is a bell pile. Screw piles can are are engineered and can be installed with an engineering spec based on the torque applied to the pile. Another major advantage is that screw piles or driven piles can be installed at an angle or even horizontal, try that with concrete...

Each has their place, but just because you know concrete, does not mean you know Jack about screw piles. Residential construction, I would agree perhaps screw piles may not have as many advatages because you would not install the volume of piles to make it advantageous, but in industrial and oilfield construction, very few concrete piles.

I can drive steel piles for about a quarter of the cost of a concrete pile, and have them in the ground and cut to height before you could load up the sonotube...just sayin...

Both have their place, but saying there are all these issues is just not true...

I am talking strictly construction in residential. Oilfield, etc is a completely different ball game. And for cost, in residential concrete are cheaper then screw.

 

[Longhorn]

A pile is only as good as the guy who drilled the hole.....how many times I've seen guys drill a hole for a pile and leave 2 feet of fluff dirt in the bottom of the hole then pour concrete on top of it! Kind of defetes the purpose! IMO

What do u call a pile. I've always poured a footing at the bottom so it is locked in... so to speak.

I am talking strictly construction in residential. Oilfield, etc is a completely different ball game. And for cost, in residential concrete are cheaper then screw.

Overkill, you are 100% correct and I will give you one more to ponder...here in Medicine Hat, deck piles have to have a permit. Permit states that piles must be 8" diameter minumium and 8' deep...END OF PERMIT

Contractors and home builders here will dig a trench with a backhoe the length of the deck then drop in sonotube, fill with concrete and then backfill...Every deck in this town has huge sink holes around the deck piles, where is the lateral stability here???

I think it is safe to say all construction goes this way, its only good if its done right...

Cyle: There are some smaller outfits now that are doing screw piling off of a bobcat, quite econimical, not sure in your area, but we are seeing more and more of them...commercial guys moonlighting on the residential side...I do a ton of concrete as well, so dont get me wrong, just saying there are benefits and downfalls to both concrete and screw piles...

 

[Cyle]

Overkill, you are 100% correct and I will give you one more to ponder...here in Medicine Hat, deck piles have to have a permit. Permit states that piles must be 8" diameter minumium and 8' deep...END OF PERMIT

Contractors and home builders here will dig a trench with a backhoe the length of the deck then drop in sonotube, fill with concrete and then backfill...Every deck in this town has huge sink holes around the deck piles, where is the lateral stability here???

I think it is safe to say all construction goes this way, its only good if its done right...

Cyle: There are some smaller outfits now that are doing screw piling off of a bobcat, quite econimical, not sure in your area, but we are seeing more and more of them...commercial guys moonlighting on the residential side...I do a ton of concrete as well, so dont get me wrong, just saying there are benefits and downfalls to both concrete and screw piles...

I've seen builders do everything, real contractors do things differently for the most part. And a lot of GOOD tradesmen will not even do work for builders because of the crap most do. A pile has to be done on untouched ground and drilled, no other way around it. Sure you can extend it above ground a bit and fill in around it, but unless the base around is good solid ground your wasting your time.

There is a reason most builder driveways need to be redone in 1-3 years, sometimes less. And yet i've seen driveways i've done 10 years ago still look like the day it was poured. Heck, my garage floor is 20 years old and there is not a crack in it, and the entire floor is hollow, all sitting on concrete piles. But yet a builders garage pad is a few months old and already cracked up. It's all how the work is done.

Trust me, i'm looking for a house right now, and they are all built like crap. I cannot believe ANYONE would accept the work done. New home builders for the large part are the slum of the construction, i'm sure oilfield has the exact same type of thing.

 

[Longhorn]

I've seen builders do everything, real contractors do things differently for the most part. And a lot of GOOD tradesmen will not even do work for builders because of the crap most do. A pile has to be done on untouched ground and drilled, no other way around it. Sure you can extend it above ground a bit and fill in around it, but unless the base around is good solid ground your wasting your time.

There is a reason most builder driveways need to be redone in 1-3 years, sometimes less. And yet i've seen driveways i've done 10 years ago still look like the day it was poured. Heck, my garage floor is 20 years old and there is not a crack in it, and the entire floor is hollow, all sitting on concrete piles. But yet a builders garage pad is a few months old and already cracked up. It's all how the work is done.

Trust me, i'm looking for a house right now, and they are all built like crap. I cannot believe ANYONE would accept the work done. New home builders for the large part are the slum of the construction, i'm sure oilfield has the exact same type of thing.

Yep...differnce in the patch though is that the shoddy guys only last a few days...

 

[OVERKILL 19]

Overkill, you are 100% correct and I will give you one more to ponder...here in Medicine Hat, deck piles have to have a permit. Permit states that piles must be 8" diameter minumium and 8' deep...END OF PERMIT

Contractors and home builders here will dig a trench with a backhoe the length of the deck then drop in sonotube, fill with concrete and then backfill...Every deck in this town has huge sink holes around the deck piles, where is the lateral stability here???

I think it is safe to say all construction goes this way, its only good if its done right...
QUOTE]

In Red Deer you need a permit for a deck as well. It states 10" diameter and must be below the frost line.... Pretty open ended. What do you call below frost line? Up in the Pines "heavly tree'ed" would be different frost line than in Anders not a tree to be seen for miles! It used to say 12 feet deep at one time but nobody could afford the concrete!

 

[my mod]

Well, as an ex-installer of thousands of screw piles for both residential and commercial, as well as years of digging holes for concrete piles, there is nothing wrong with a screw pile. All issues have been with the installation.
Screw piles will sink and concrete piles will not...... Wrong. If everything is equal, both piles will either hold or sink. A 12 inch screw pile is equal to a 12 inch concrete pile. If the soil is too soft for a 12 inch footprint both piles will fail.
The issue is that you can not install a concrete pile very well in soft soil because the holes collapse but a screw pile will go in but not be in stable ground. If the installer was paying attention to his torques he would know that the screw pile is in poor soil and should add extensions untill they hit good soil. Some installers also try to install them with equipment that does not have enough power, like bobcats, and therefore spin the piles more and dig the soil instead of screw them into the earth (like a wood screw in wood) There are so many advantages to screw piles including, no spoil pile to clean up, no waiting for concrete to set or concrete truck, if you hit soft soil, you can add extensions untill you do hit good soil.
If something is staked wrong, or plans change, you can remove a screw pile, try that with a concrete one.
The screw pile will not jack in frost like a concrete pile, and if you are in softer soil, you can use a wider screw on the end of the pile (14 or 16 inch) and get a better pile
We have proven time after time that the screw pile is WAY cheaper and more effective than a concrete pile
Just make sure you do not use a "fly by nite" installer that builds his own screw piles and you should have no issues with them. The screw pile has to be built properly, including the angle of the flight.
Screw piles are considered structural and are under the CWB and are regulated.

 

[Cyle]

Well, as an ex-installer of thousands of screw piles for both residential and commercial, as well as years of digging holes for concrete piles, there is nothing wrong with a screw pile. All issues have been with the installation.
Screw piles will sink and concrete piles will not...... Wrong. If everything is equal, both piles will either hold or sink. A 12 inch screw pile is equal to a 12 inch concrete pile. If the soil is too soft for a 12 inch footprint both piles will fail.
The issue is that you can not install a concrete pile very well in soft soil because the holes collapse but a screw pile will go in but not be in stable ground. If the installer was paying attention to his torques he would know that the screw pile is in poor soil and should add extensions untill they hit good soil. Some installers also try to install them with equipment that does not have enough power, like bobcats, and therefore spin the piles more and dig the soil instead of screw them into the earth (like a wood screw in wood) There are so many advantages to screw piles including, no spoil pile to clean up, no waiting for concrete to set or concrete truck, if you hit soft soil, you can add extensions untill you do hit good soil.
If something is staked wrong, or plans change, you can remove a screw pile, try that with a concrete one.
The screw pile will not jack in frost like a concrete pile, and if you are in softer soil, you can use a wider screw on the end of the pile (14 or 16 inch) and get a better pile
We have proven time after time that the screw pile is WAY cheaper and more effective than a concrete pile
Just make sure you do not use a "fly by nite" installer that builds his own screw piles and you should have no issues with them. The screw pile has to be built properly, including the angle of the flight.
Screw piles are considered structural and are under the CWB and are regulated.

Here's the issue though, a screw piles has to be done perfect and how many homeowners hiring a contractor will know if it is done right? A concrete one is a LOT more foolproof. I have removed concrete piles 8-10' deep from under driveways when removing. The hardest part is the friction holding them in, not the weight. A concrete pile will not heave up very easily, and it has to be below the frostline to be done right anyways. I have never had a issue with a concrete pile moving with frost.

I would be curious to know how much these screw piles are though, and how they are cheaper. If your doing a minimal amount maybe, but if your doing say 20-30 piles, I have a hard time believing screw is cheaper.

 

[Longhorn]

Here's the issue though, a screw piles has to be done perfect and how many homeowners hiring a contractor will know if it is done right? A concrete one is a LOT more foolproof. I have removed concrete piles 8-10' deep from under driveways when removing. The hardest part is the friction holding them in, not the weight. A concrete pile will not heave up very easily, and it has to be below the frostline to be done right anyways. I have never had a issue with a concrete pile moving with frost.

I would be curious to know how much these screw piles are though, and how they are cheaper. If your doing a minimal amount maybe, but if your doing say 20-30 piles, I have a hard time believing screw is cheaper.

There are way more screwed up concrete piles than screw anchors, primarily due to the fact that concrete is far more common. But your point that screw piles must be done correctly applies also to concrete piles. Tons of crappy concrete guys out there...Why?? Pretty simple...some basic hand tools and a wheelbarrow and shazam you are a concrete finisher. Good finishers are like artists...Lots of skill and experience, and there are less and less of these guys, and more and more of the guys that did a bit on their own, or worked for a good contractor and now have gone on their own...

At least the guys doing screw piles have made a fairly significant investment in equipment, so generally there is some desire to do a good job, as word of mouth and referrals are how most of them get work.

 

[Cyle]

There are way more screwed up concrete piles than screw anchors, primarily due to the fact that concrete is far more common. But your point that screw piles must be done correctly applies also to concrete piles. Tons of crappy concrete guys out there...Why?? Pretty simple...some basic hand tools and a wheelbarrow and shazam you are a concrete finisher. Good finishers are like artists...Lots of skill and experience, and there are less and less of these guys, and more and more of the guys that did a bit on their own, or worked for a good contractor and now have gone on their own...

At least the guys doing screw piles have made a fairly significant investment in equipment, so generally there is some desire to do a good job, as word of mouth and referrals are how most of them get work.

I guess it depends what you consider for a concrete company. Most guys have a pickup truck, trailer, bobcat, dump truck, easily a $100k investment. All it takes for a guy to do screw piles is a truck, trailer, bobcat, and an auger, and go buy some screw piles. I know a landscaper with two machines who wasn't busy enough, he started doing screw piles. Lot of experience drilling regular, but took a quick course on screw piles and now does them.

I will say there are a LOT of fly by night guys just pouring and finishing. The problem is I think, concrete has a lot of money to be made so everyone wants to do it, and think it's really easy.

But it's like anything, there's good and bad work. But here's the big issue if a guy is doing screw piles in really soft ground i'm sure it would be pretty easy to fake it and say it was a certain torque, when it really isn't. While concrete is pretty cut and dry if it's good enough. That would be a concern of mine.

Plus, in a lot of times, you are pouring a slab on the piles, then a screw pile makes ZERO sense. I don't think anyone would even think of a screw pile under a concrete slab.

 

[Longhorn]

Agree with most all of your points for once Cyle LOL...

I did want to add one thing though, we have used both screw piles and driven piles for concrete slabs, and they work really well...We normally drive the piles, then cut them to height then weld rebar in a cross to anchor the slab to the pile. Has worked very well for us. We have also done some shop floors where we drive the piles, then weld a large 'I' beam to the top at finished grade height. We then pour the floor and finish to the top of the beam so you have a steel beam exposed on the floor. We do this for excavators and Cats so that they dont crack the floor. This also gives you a spot to weld anchors to the concrete floor for fabricating and such. How many times have you worked in a shop and wished you could add an anchor to the floor? Now you can...

Anyways Cyle, not bashing concrete in any way, just saying that both concrete and steel piles have their place, and we do both so get to see each side. Its always good to hear from people that do similar things, always lots of ideas get tossed around...

In these pics you can see the I beam that I am talking about...

 

[Shortcut]

I've done concrete forever and what you are explaining makes absolutely no sense. Are you parking something on your roof that you forgot to mention? Or did you build in swamp land and your whole house is on piles or something? If a engineer designed it, then I would know why it was like that though and makes no sense. It's a frigging deck, you don't need a engineer. The roof on a house weights nothing. A 10"x10' pile will carry a LOT of weight unless your in terrible ground. My advice, spend the money you'd pay a engineer and put it into making overkill on the project, you'll end up a lot further ahead.

I would take a contractor of 20 years advice long before i'd take a engineer of 20 years advice. Just look around the city, you can see a lot of the great engineers creations that supposedly know something No offence to any engineers some are ok, but most ain't got a clue!

I agree a 10"x10" pile will carry alot of weight, but as for the friggen deck part, he is supporting roof load and deck load, no info on how far apart supports are, beam sizing, joists, etc. Factor in snow loads for the roof, live loads on deck, and their could be considerable loads on each of his post placements. As for piles themselves, concrete or otherwise, they typically do need engineer's input for loading---concrete piles are not specified under Part 9 of the Alberta Building Code, steel piles are covered by a STANDATA listed by Alberta Municipal Affairs which requires the engineer's input for installation. There are different regulations however that are seen province wide. Example, Alberta Building Code specifies a minimum of 4' depth foundation for frost, however Ft Mc requires 5' as they have encountered issues with 4' foundations. Like you say, soil conditions are a very significant factor in design of support.