IMPORTANT POLL regarding enforcement- Please respond

[2003Summit]

Certain law enforcement units in Alberta use staged broken down looking equipment placed trail side/ditch side (wherever) to lure other off roaders into providing assistance only to get them to stop and dismount their machines so further action can be taken (ie a sting). The officers then either check off-roaders credentials and/or then fine them or charge them with illegal activity. This action applies to both snowmobiles and quaders, and from what I understand: it’s a fact and it is being practiced in Alberta currently.

I really want to know, honest, fair and considered answers to this question. I would like responses from everyone who reads this. Also, please do not stack the vote.

This concern here is this may be a safety issue. I know many people are already aware of these operations and I have already heard people say that they will think twice before helping others, now, because of this. My question is how far does this go? Talk is talk, but what is the real impact of this? Off roading, especially snowmobiling, is an inherently dangerous activity. In practice though it’s quite safe, this is because we have one big rule: “You never leave someone out there and you always help”. Can you imagine being stuck or broke somewhere and people were thinking about whether they wanted to come within a quarter of a mile of you? Throw in the fact that this is happening a little while before sun set, it’s getting colder, you are not prepared for it, don’t know what to do and it’s now much farther than you think now that you have to walk. Is it dangerous yet?

If any of this is true, than the real victim here is going to be some innocent person who got hurt or died because people were afraid to help. But it’s not important what I think, I want to know what “people” think. So,

 

[j335]

Wow, I cannot believe this. To think that the cops would do this, I don't understand how they came up with this. I agree 2003Summit, the real victim will be an innocent person, because I'm going to think twice about stopping from now on. But thats just my
Josh

 

[Toeknee]

If you are riding in an area where you are allowed to ride and you sled has registration, insurance and a trail pass and you are not all pissed up, who gives a hoot if they stop you or not. And to tell you the truth I think if you play those games then you have to pay the price if you get caught Just my opinion

 

[GRD]

I agree with you Toeknee (tony). I am going to stop, and have before and will continue to stop. This is potentially a good way to catch guys on stolen property.

 

[SLEDBUNNYRACING]

I agree with Toeknee, ride legal and this won't matter.

If you are riding in an area where you are allowed to ride and you sled has registration, insurance and a trail pass and you are not all pissed up, who gives a hoot if they stop you or not. And to tell you the truth I think if you play those games then you have to pay the price if you get caught Just my opinion

 

[BIGFOOT]

Myself as you said, (You never leave someone out there & you always help) I have not & will not ever leave someone without checking on situation @ hand.

 

[Sledderglen]

Sting

I remember that the Stratchona old Bylaw officers did this trick. Dont tell me that bthey are up to their old tricks again. Well I ride legal so I guess i will be helping someone who really doesnt need help. Crying wolf again Stratchona county

 

[ski-doo]

id stop but cops should be doing something a little more important than trying to slam sledders with tickets.

 

[Shifty423]

I stop every time... being a guide thats what we do no matter how screwed someone is. Now if I was tricked into stopping I might not be so happy. The rule is no man left behind and if you trick me into a stop (I ride legal) then I might have a few choice words!

 

[chinook75]

I honestly find this hard to believe. The resources needed must heavily outweigh any benefit gained by a law enforcement group to justify such an act. I'm not saying that these circus shows don't happen, but I would be stunned if they do.

If these are for real...would someone be able to post a name/address to whom is responsible for such decisions. Because if my tax dollars go to such nonsense I would like to see some kind of beneficial report or stats these stings achieve.

 

[ESOX]

for what purpose?

I honestly find this hard to believe. The resources needed must heavily outweigh any benefit gained by a law enforcement group to justify such an act. I'm not saying that these circus shows don't happen, but I would be stunned if they do.

If these are for real...would someone be able to post a name/address to whom is responsible for such decisions. Because if my tax dollars go to such nonsense I would like to see some kind of beneficial report or stats these stings achieve.

I would have to agree, effective change has never been shown to be achieved by deterrents such as fines etc, so the only other rational thought might be a 'cash-cow' as motivation ie: photo radar tickets. The cost associated with manpower and equipment would, in my opinion, far outweigh any revenues generated from these sorts of things. I was stopped by an RCMP cruiser a few years ago while we were ditch-banging (yes I stopped even though the sled vs car 'chase' would have been heavily weighted in my favor). We got a warning and the whole ordeal was really uneventful. Turned out the officer did a little sledding himself and was more concerned that we weren't riding through seeded fields or cutting fences etc, and I agreee. And from a safety perspective...if the usual practice is not engaging in high-speed car chases, I can't imagine sled-chases would be viewed as being any safer (although would make for some great footage on the next episode of 'COPS'). Discussion and education, such as what is found on a website such as this, will likely make the most impact.
So thanks again Ron for a good job and a good idea!!

 

[2003Summit]

Special constables in strathcona county

OK, I didn't want to come out and say this right away because I didn't want to bias the poll by getting too specific, but the poll has been running for a while now and a lot of people have seen it and already had the opportunity to vote; plus I thought more people knew about this but it seams quite a few don't. If you search the forms you will find more posts about this but to state it here:

Last year Strathcona county (AKA the county Sherwood park is in) budgeted about $160K (I can't quite remember the exact figure) for two special constables complete with two sleds, and I think two quads. I have heard second hand that their job, as they see it, is to shut off-roading down in the county for good. From what I understand they have no other responsibilities besides off-roading but I could be wrong, they could be by-law officers with a special focus on off-roading.

To give you some more back ground on this (and this is based on my understanding of the situation as I have observed it for the last 18 months or so): Strathcona did this because of an overwhelming sentiment form county citizens that they did not want illegal off roading to happen any more in the county. From my discussions with them they thought the message they were getting was unilateral. Recently though there has been a lot of hostility regarding these constables. At the moment Strathcona is looking into why people would be upset by them, they understand many of the people that are upset are their own county citizens. Presently county council is trying to gather more information.

In addition, other more minor things have been happening like when people are encountered, the constables have been telling them they can ride an established trail system up there in Fort Saskatchewan, which is completely approved snowmobile for use. The constables (from what I heard this week) do not understand how the trail pass works and they have –not- been telling sleders there is a cost and that they should have a trail pass.

This has been greatly annoying the Snow Angels as their trail system is funded by the ASA trail pass. Without pass funding they can't afford to groom for the new increased traffic, I have read in a few posts that Angles members are getting frustrated with the number of riders on their system that do not have a trial pass. I was called by a council administrative assistant and asked why Snow Angles members are getting upset with the constables sending illegal riders with no trail pass to ride the Fort Sask trail system. I explained the ASA trail pass and how it works and why it’s important and suggested the constables really need to understand the pass system and how it works as part of their jobs so they can stop upsetting the Snow Angles – I told them Tri-County would be pretty mad too if someone did this to us. I don’t know if that info will get back to where it needs to be but I tried.

And further more, getting back to the whole public money thing. As much as this might fuel some anger in those that might not like the fact Strathcona put up a budget for special constables I want to let people know about something else as well; since what we are talking about is really a public matter I don't see why I should not pass what I know on. Keep in mind here I am not trying to create a mob, but I want you to more fully understand the different facets of what has been happening and then do rational/constructive things with the info:

For more than a year now, the Tri-County snowmobile club has been trying to raise funding for a large groomer machine to properly groom Ministik. Our budget for this is quite large, somewhere around $150K. We have gotten approval for funding from the two MLA's from the other county’s around Ministik, but since Ministik boarders on Strathcona, the other MLA's have asked us to also get an equal contribution from Strathcona before they give us their portion of the money. At this point we have been un-able to get Strathcona to approve it. We are still working on it, I don't know if this will change, but this is the state we are at. It's also important that you know our grant application is contingent on the fact that grooming in Ministik will help all users of Ministik (there are about a dozen other user groups), so while this volume of money will seam like a lot to give to a snowmobile group, the reason it is being considered is because it will benefit all users of Ministik - we just happen to be the ones that will do the work (the work of getting the money, getting and maintaining the equipment, and operating the equipment).

Draw your own conclusions based on this limited information.

I expect this is going to cause some new discussion about this so if you want to reply to this post please look for the new thread I started with the same title "Special constables in strathcona county". Otherwise this thread will just be hijacked.

Thanks.

 

[Summitric]

ride legal, no hassle

I ride legal, and in return will expect no hassle. I always stop to make sure everythings okay. Our group does the same.

 

[Sledderglen]

Sled-Quad Squad

These RCMP and Bylaw officers came to a Ft. Sask club meeting and talked about their program. Many had issues such as this topic. I asked them directly about the pretending that there was a broken down sled and needing help and they said that they would not use that system. What changed I wonder. My how things change from one month to the next. Its good to hear that the county wants to talk to the groups out there. My question is why didnt they do that first.

 

[Summitric]

R.C. entrapment

Sledderglen, I don't think it was our local yocals. I know for a fact both their sleds were down for a while and the Mountie(not the bylaw guy) told me they haven't really been out yet. He said the bylaw sled was just getting finished up and they were probably out this weekend(maybe)...... Where did this first entrapment originate and what was the circumstances??? I think 2003summit brought up this thread, so maybe he knows more and can explain???

 

[triplethreat]

ride legally

i agree with toeknee
if you have insurance yes ride responsibaly
yes i agree you should have to stop for the law if required
remember the motto TREAD LIGHTLY or never use the trail again
DONT DRINK AND RIDE AND LETS BE SAFE RIDERS

 

[catmando]

I will always stop and help,I couldnt just drive by,that is a bad trend to start.In the mountains especially,A stranded person without some survival skills could perish pretty easily.
catmando!

 

[2003Summit]

Sledderglen, I don't think it was our local yocals. I know for a fact both their sleds were down for a while and the Mountie(not the bylaw guy) told me they haven't really been out yet. He said the bylaw sled was just getting finished up and they were probably out this weekend(maybe)...... Where did this first entrapment originate and what was the circumstances??? I think 2003summit brought up this thread, so maybe he knows more and can explain???

You know it could have been the county council more than the "cops" that are currently enforcing their bylaws. Where this came from? Well I had been hearing so many rumors of this and when I was called by a rep for the county part of our discussion was about this, I asked them to stop doing this. Their response was they had also gotten this feed back from others and could not understand why enforcing the law would get people so upset. I tried to explain the safety issue to them. For me, my discussion about this with that particular person basically confirmed the rumors for me. That's when I stuck this poll on.

Now it could have been that no one really thought about how this affects our safety issues at the time so maybe it did not seam like a bad idea. Maybe when they did this it was a while ago, like last year or something. Maybe they haven’t done it in a while but rumors persisted for so long. It seams like now, regardless of whatever may or may not have happened, we are getting feed back that they will not use this system (via sledderglen).

re: county getting feed back from locals via the focus group? Not really. That was not really what it turned out to be. It was a 10-20 year outdoor planning session hosted by a research firm hired to give advice to the county. A lot of dog walking/soccer/jogging/cycling/baseball/horse/trail walking/tree-hugging type talk. This is the most recent time I was told that we are not organized enough as a group and that this is why we do not get what we ask for. Ie. there are enough of us out there, if we would just come together as a larger group and make the request with a bigger voice. This was suggestion from the leader of the group who is also the founder of the research co. I don't know how much of our feed back will actually be heard by the council. The founder did comment that administrations do what they want to do some times in spite of feedback from research grops. And this certainly was not a focus group on snowmobiling activity, but it was nice we were invited.

It's interesting though, now that I am on the topic, that the walking/soccer/jogging/cycling/baseball/horse/trail walking/tree-hugging type were all quite in favor and very engaged when I brought up the point that as long as their are in-sufficient riding area's their will be illegal riding. Many of them had stories about them or some one they knew in the country that started out young with an old sled riding around and how they liked it and wished there was more place for it. Did not expect to see that much support coming from "that" entire group.

 

[treemongrol]

I'll always help somebody that needs it, whether there stuck, broke down or hurt. If somebody is sitting there by them selves I can't in good consious just ride right by them. There is laws regarding being insured and registered, also they can find some of these stolen sleds quads out that are out there. I know a couple that got there sleds back that had been stolden. Cop had set up for drinking and riding ran some guys sled numbers and the sleds came back stolen. Also it makes thes yahoos that think it's cool to sled/quad while drinking think twice.