cat ski, ski hill and heli ski operators data collection??!?!?!?!?!

[HELISKI.com]

wow, great posts guys and gals. you answered a lot of questions that i had so thanks.....and thanks heli ski for posting up as well... personally i agree with what heli ski has to say. we do need to work together. however, the heli ski mentality of "stay the hell outta our tenure" is pretty common, i can understand why for sure. but the thing i dont understand is that they have a fricken helicopter, you cant tell me that sleds have wrecked every last little bit of the tenure?!?!
now lets say the sledder and ski communities do start to cooperate. how about letting us use some of the less desirable parts of the tenure, or letting us use part till a certain time of year, then openiing other parts for later?
it just seems to me that the ski community as a whole is looking for too much compromise from the sled community, it has to be more give and take in my eyes. then maybe you will start to see the cooperation.

Wow, those are great suggestions.

I am familiar with a similar situation in Maui. Windsurfers were conflicting with snorkelers and fishermen. They reached a compromise, sharing based on time of day. Makes perfect sense. Snorkel and fish in the morning, when it's calm. Windsurf in the afternoon when the wind picks up. Everybody is happy.

 

[clarkydubs]

i have worked at heli lodges too ... ive seen a good guy turn into an idiot just because he starts getting money in his hands, used his long time friends like a dirty dish rag and then just throws them out !!! huh kinda sucks what money will do to a man ... and as for frozen sleds tracks breaking legs or whatever ? these operators cut the banks and build big walls on the roads ! one guy broke both of his collar bones ! all because a cat/heli ski operator built a wall where there was never one before . i might start to cooperate when these outfits STOP cutting heli landing pads and roads where ever they like without appying thru the government .

knowing what the locals have been through around these parts i can SORT of agree. however, its also very clear that your personal expierence makes it so you only see one side. i for one am glad there are heli ski and cat ski ops out there. and i think everyone who rides a sled should be thankful too. i mean, look at the BIS, who were the first people there to help out?
i also have personal expierence that strays my opinion the other way. earlier in the year myself and 5 other pickups hit the ditch coming down from sledding. two skidders from local logging crews drove right passed us, then along came the snow cat from a cat ski operator, one guy jumps out borrows a sled to go get a set of tire chains from the parking lot. the other guy starts reefing trucks outta the ditch with the snow cat. they ferry the chains up and down till all the trucks were safly off the mtn. what do they want in return?!?!? a cold case of beer, nothing more....

unfortunatly there are lots of ass hatz in our sport, as well as in the heli/cat ski industry. so i dont see any sort of province wide comprimise in the future....however, hears to hoping people on the local level can try and compromise so EVERYONE can enjoy the backcountry......

should change the title of this thread, cause you guys answered all my other questions about the avy data collection. my mind is at rest knowing it gets to the CAC, they way i heard it explained is that it was only available to other ski operators....

 

[HELISKI.com]

as for frozen sleds tracks breaking legs or whatever ?

I know of this happening to two people on the same day. Collar bone breaks sucked, too, I'm sure. You can sympathize, eh?

 

[snopro]

I agree with the first part of your statement and disagree with the last part. We dig a pit often when we are out (at least once daily typically), usually in a spot that represents "average" riding for the day (and by average I mean slope aspect or elevation, not down to the finite details, but usually I have seen some general similarities regionally). We use it to gauge the bulletin accuracy for the area (usually close to same snow parameters) and then tailor riding to the general comments in the bulletin. I.e. if the bulletin lists a PWL down at 1 m and storm snow above it etc etc, we dig a pit and investigate/confirm this (again, usually confirms). If the avy bulletin says based on these parameters, stay off SE facing aspects etc etc, then we are pretty confident in the bulletin and adhere to it.

Sometimes the snow conditions don't match up just due to geographics and variability, and then you have to be a little more on your toes after digging your pit and go with what the snow tells you. The lazy excuse (and make no mistake, that's all it is...being cocky and lazy) for not digging a pit on the basis that sledders cover too much ground to do it, is uber-weak at best IMO, and I know lots of sledders use this excuse. Most guys just don't want to cut into riding time, the "we cover too much ground" excuse is just convienient. Once you've done a few, its only takes 15 mins to do.

Anyone who has taken avy training can tell you each area can be different, that's easy, but learning if the area has a rain crust (for example) at 5000 ft and then applying that knowledge to how the rain crust will react on a south face vs a north face with less solar radiation is time well spent IMO. Digging a pit will give you more info that what you had at the truck. Nobody I have ever met has been able to simply eyeball a slope and tell me if it will slide or not. Will a pit or a bulletin tell you everything about every hill you are riding on/up/below that day? of course not, but it does give you some general ideas that can help you make informed decisions.

I can honestly tell you I have not in my 30 years of riding in the mountains seen a sledder dig a pit other than to get there sled unstuck. I have personally done it twice and both times were at an avalanche course I was taking. I think I can honestly say that I feel every hill in an area has its own story to tell when it comes to snow load and PWL. There is no guarantee that digging a pit at Superbowl is going to give you the same data as digging a pit down by the lakes. Some hills are prone to slide more than others.Thats my personal opinion and it doesn't have to be yours or the next guys. Just sayn'.

 

[Modman]

I can honestly tell you I have not in my 30 years of riding in the mountains seen a sledder dig a pit other than to get there sled unstuck. I have personally done it twice and both times were at an avalanche course I was taking. I think I can honestly say that I feel every hill in an area has its own story to tell when it comes to snow load and PWL. There is no guarantee that digging a pit at Superbowl is going to give you the same data as digging a pit down by the lakes. Some hills are prone to slide more than others.Thats my personal opinion and it doesn't have to be yours or the next guys. Just sayn'.

I respect other opinions, yours included. If you think I'm full of Sh!t just ask Dusty if he's ever seen me dig one.

 

[ferniesnow]

I can honestly tell you I have not in my 30 years of riding in the mountains seen a sledder dig a pit other than to get there sled unstuck. I have personally done it twice and both times were at an avalanche course I was taking. I think I can honestly say that I feel every hill in an area has its own story to tell when it comes to snow load and PWL. There is no guarantee that digging a pit at Superbowl is going to give you the same data as digging a pit down by the lakes. Some hills are prone to slide more than others.Thats my personal opinion and it doesn't have to be yours or the next guys. Just sayn'.

I will typically dig pits and doo the "tap-tap compression test" in the early season to confirm what is in the snow pack as garnered from the Bulletin. Throughout the season, I will rely on that knowledge and be cognizant of what has happened with regards to hoar, rain, storm snow, etc.. If I go to a new area, I will read the Bulletin and doo a pit when I get there so that I have an idea of what the consequences will be.

Locally, I wil generally dig a few more pits in Jan or Feb just to satisfy myself about the PWL's and how much snow is likely to be released. We doo have an advantage with living here and riding regularly as we get an understanding of the snow pack and what is going on with the various aspects relating to the conditions. Wind events, storm snow, solar radiation, chute releases, cornices that we can see on the bluebird days, etc., etc..

I have taken the time to analyze the snow when getting unstuck. Sometimes, the hole is 2-3' deep and a nice shear cut along the snow can reveal a lot of crusts or a cohesive snow pack or a bunch of facets under the trench. All good stuff to put in the bucket.