blowing belts ? burning too much oil ? could be related !

[RGM]

Re: Customer Bob

So just asking because the owner of the store I work at is gonna ask me. Who will be paying us for all the work we will be spending time on to solve this issue for BRP? This isn't an isolated issue. All the best master techs on Community have been working on it and to date some things have been found but not a solution that stops this phenomenon. We all know about the PTO motor
mount. No bulletin. We know the secondary spring is to soft. No bulletin. We now know the pdrive inner sheave wobbles. Bulletin.....to come clean. We are also finding out by machining the wobble out that belt temps are reduced dramatically. But don't do it or your warranty is void. How can we help the customer if the manufacturer won't help
us?

The dealers on the coast are just as frustrated as you are. They are getting no support from BRP. I think most the 850 owners know it has nothing to do with the dealers. There are no 850 without problems, just 850 that aren't ridden hard or have low KM on them, it is NOT one or two here and there. How many people remember BRP saying there was just a limited # of driveshafts that snapped on the 08 and they ended up replacing them all. BRP need to man up say sorry and say they will make things right. I would urge the dealers to set up a conference call and decide some sort of action plan.

 

[Daag44]

*BADOOING* warning sticker

So just asking because the owner of the store I work at is gonna ask me. Who will be paying us for all the work we will be spending time on to solve this issue for BRP?

This isn't an isolated issue. All the best master techs on Community have been working on it and to date some things have been found but not a solution that stops this phenomenon. We all know about the PTO motor mount. No bulletin. We know the secondary spring is to soft. No bulletin. We now know the pdrive inner sheave wobbles. Bulletin.....to come clean. We are also finding out by machining the wobble out that belt temps are reduced dramatically. But don't do it or your warranty is void.

How can we help the customer if the manufacturer won't help us?

I am with you on all those points 100%. I makes it nearly impossible to make any corrections if you are not made aware of the problems. For the no bulletins there was also the t-stat/water pump issue that you had very little help with. And where is the bulletin for all those wire harnesses rubbing on the coolant hoses? If you are saying there is a problem, hell ya.

In my opinion, the pre-season sample size was not nearly large enough for the mountain segment. BRP knows very well that they are the hardest on sleds. Someone made the decision that the 850 was ready, and it was for the most part. End of Season Reports are sprouting everywhere with how wonderful the sled was, but it doesn't help those who are used to pinning it for miles in the hardest conditions and blowing belts.

So what to doo? You already know about the motor mount, and there is no reason not to replace the secondary spring. If you don't have the tool to measure the spring tension, your dealer should invest in one. You can also adjust the X to find the sweet spot. Dealers should be equipped with a Belt Temp Gauge so the monitoring is not a problem. Gearing may need to be changed too. This should take no more then a few hours to a day tops for one sled with the results that can be used for other sleds. If more time is needed, make that one sled count.

I don't see how a dealer can make money on repeated warranty repairs. If anything you are loosing money. So the least amount of warranty repairs allows for more time spent on profitable work.

There is also the possibility to consult the aftermarket for different calibrations.

The Blowhole is another option that won't affect warranty.

G4 850 Blowhole Update With Photos - Page 5 - REV-GEN 4 - 850 Summit/Freeride - DOOTalk Forums

"I've got roughly 150 km on the blowhole now. It rocks. Used a temp gun to compare clutch temps across three sleds, same conditions, mine were 1/3 cooler on average. I also added more venting today to help with the heat, thanks Idahoo and MTNKT"


If all else fails, maybe we doo need a *BADOOING* warning sticker.

 

[kanedog]

Here are 2 sheaves from a P drive. Note where the rubber marks are. Normal slippage the marks would be a complete 360 degree circle. This clutch is not normal. This is belt slippage which also causes maje heat.

 

[Daag44]

Clutch is not the Norm, but rather a new clutch design

View attachment 203931
Here are 2 sheaves from a P drive. Note where the rubber marks are. Normal slippage the marks would be a complete 360 degree circle. This clutch is not normal. This is belt slippage which also causes maje heat.

You are right, the clutch is not the norm. It is new clutch design.

 

[Daag44]

New Clutch even works with the MPI Turbo 850

What kinda crap lame speech is that Daagdoo? BRP invented the dumb clutch. It will never work. It squeezes and loosens(slips)the belt 8000x a minute. 16,000x a minute if you count both ends 180 degrees of the patent pending blunder of a wobble clutch. The 24thou of wobble is like hitting a bump on the clutch sheave every revolution. The vibrations are so intense that it's causing wires to break and vibrate through any contact with the vibrating metal chassis. The slipping is heating the belt beyond its limit. Vibration is causing motors to eat themselves alive. Damage doesn't come from blowing belts. Any 850 with a wobble clutch is simply a ticking time bomb. Drive down the road with a tire mounted crooked. How long till it tie rods and other parts destroy themselves from vibration. It's not that hard to figure out BRP.

Motors are lasting on avg 2500kms. G4's that have 1200kms have 50% life left in them. BRP has a huge issue. If they replace the clutch with a balanced and true clutch, the motor now has no counterbalance. Now how long will the motors last? Prolly longer than if a wobble clutch was left on. Will this get BRP to the end of a 4 year warranty? Don't know.
What's BRP do? Covers one belt and sends the customer out the door. Nice.
Challenge to BRP-prove me wrong. Don't spin it. Don't attack me. Answer the two questions-Why are belts blowing? Why are motors blowing?
The above is my opinion and belief.

Answer the two questions-

Why are belts blowing?

- Those that are blowing have various issues, but in short the calibration is wrong.

- Fix any motor mount issues and correct the calibration.


Here is one example:

Daniel475 made a calibration change to his Summit 850 and now his belt runs much cooler.

https://www.snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4068419

"my brother has the same sled but without the clutch kit so we could run side by side tests to see how much better the clutch kit made my sled, snow conditions were nice and deep lots of long pulls and tree slaying , we pulled clutch covers off and right away you could tell the difference in temperature , my brothers was boiling the water mine was not even close to the same temperature, I could touch mine with my hands"

"Were you blowing belts before? Or just glazing them?"

"blowing them !"


Even the guys with MPI Turbos were able make the clutch work with only adding pin weight and a stiffer secondary spring. So how can the problem be the design of the clutch?

https://www.snowest.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4061527&postcount=223
https://www.snowest.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4062009&postcount=226




Why are motors blowing?

- Same reasons any other two stroke would blow, because they had a problem and weren't working right.
- Broken oil hose?
- T-stat/Coolant Pump issue?
- Excessive Blown Belts?


Here is a question for you Kanedog. Why are 850s making it 14,200 km without any issues?

 

[snochuk]

Re: New Clutch even works with the MPI Turbo 850

Is that an xm or g4 guage.
Oops that's a trail sled, no way it gets worked as hard s a mountain sled in 3' heavy snow.
It should last way longer.

Do you get paid by brp
Just asking cause it sure sounds like it.

 

[roadlinur113]

Re: New Clutch even works with the MPI Turbo 850

Groomed trail runner gauges. I made over 9 k on my old 06 renegade 800 too real easy(still running when sold) when they sit at 6500 rpm 90% of their service life. Not a fair comparison to how a Summit is run.

 

[Daag44]

Re: New Clutch even works with the MPI Turbo 850

Is that an xm or g4 guage.
Oops that's a trail sled, no way it gets worked as hard s a mountain sled in 3' heavy snow.
It should last way longer.

Do you get paid by brp
Just asking cause it sure sounds like it.

So how long will an 850 in the mountains?

It sure sounds like you are getting paid by a competitor.

 

[snochuk]

Re: New Clutch even works with the MPI Turbo 850

So how long will an 850 in the mountains?

It sure sounds like you are getting paid by a competitor.

Well that didn't answer my question but personally I am no way affiliated with the recreation industry other than a consumer.
I would expect service life to be about half or just less than half.
Mountain sleds actually get worked that much harder.

 

[jhurkot]

But what was the Maximum Belt Temperature??? Belts are not a warranty item. Whatever problem you need to figure out what it is. Getting the right equipment is less expensive than the price of two belts, so the price cannot be an excuse.

Uhh the maximum belt temp is hot AF. bring a small pan and fry an egg on your belt after a hard pull. Why does OP need to figure out the problem? I was under the impression that he paid $17k for a snowmobile that was already engineered and tested to ride in the mountains. This sled is amazing when it's working well and I understand the frustration. Blaming the owners of these sleds for riding them too hard is not the answer. Remember the 2007 rev? My first and last skidoo. I really hope the 2018 clutching is calibrated better and BRP helps out the current 2017 owners.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[fredw]

Originally Posted by Daag44
But what was the Maximum Belt Temperature??? Belts are not a warranty item. Whatever problem you need to figure out what it is. Getting the right equipment is less expensive than the price of two belts, so the price cannot be an excuse."

i think daag you have some good points but it seams what is working in Quebec trails is not similar to what we see out west.. The load put on the drive system is not even comparable out west, with days that sleds are completely submerged in heavy snow to the top of the bars..puts a load that cannot be dictated out east or in snow x races.. I have ridden those conditions with guys this year alone from Quebec that all of said they never seen conditions like that ever, and see how hard these sleds must work just alone to stay afloat

This is why so many of us feel a mountain sled cannot be tested out east, because problems just like we are seeing appear..in our group of 850s this year all the hard riders are having problems, riders that don't ride as hard, are having better success.. This don't make it right or wrong on how you ride.. First guys in on a five foot dump to a area should not be penalized for being there first.. So what has changed from last year?.

yes the G4 is ten more hp, over 800 but a few of us also ride turbos on t3s for years and make much more hp and track speed with bigger tracks and still don't have primary temps or blow belts like the G4 in similar conditions.. I Been saying it from the first reveiw I gave the G4 in January that the pdrive is not getting power to the snow, and when we did a belt temp comparison it was 50degrees hotter than the tra and I was bigger hp on a good long pull

the wobble primary might make perfect sense for the trail riders doing 300 miles out east, but that is one thing I can honestly never had out west is vibration hand problems, chest deep snow up a mountain, arms squeezing bars and veins running with adrenalin, mind running 100 miles a hour is the only feel I get.. Mountain riders only put on 50miles a day if we are lucky, most times we are out of fuel by then..

If your with brp, and want a happy mountain coustmer for next year listen up.. Make a stronger bulkhead, motor mounts that hold motor in place, a primary that is efficient, and calibrated properly. runs cool, no wobble, a better belt( like gates or Carlisle make) fit seven tooth drivers or eight if possible and get a stronger skid,(less dartyness) we don't need travel when in four feet of fresh.. Only use trails to get to riding areas

hope your listening..

 

[RGM]

There is no more figuring out required. The problem is an engineering one that only BRP can fix and that is that wobble clutch. Doing anything else is just treating symptoms not the cause.

Dagg are you going finally admit that the wobble clutch is a big fail?

 

[Cat401]

The unfortunate part of this is, the loyal doolaide drinkers will continue to support BRP. If BRP is being quiet and not admitting issues, why would you support them?
I think the quickest way that BRP will listen is if you guys take your buying dollars elsewhere for a year or two.....go buy a Poo, go buy a Cat, go buy a Yamaha.....anything to show BRP you are upset with their performance. A drastic drop in market share will get noticed....quickly.

 

[snochuk]

The unfortunate part of this is, the loyal doolaide drinkers will continue to support BRP. If BRP is being quiet and not admitting issues, why would you support them?
I think the quickest way that BRP will listen is if you guys take your buying dollars elsewhere for a year or two.....go buy a Poo, go buy a Cat, go buy a Yamaha.....anything to show BRP you are upset with their performance. A drastic drop in market share will get noticed....quickly.

Bingo!
That right there is the correct answer.

 

[kanedog]

Re: New Clutch even works with the MPI Turbo 850

Here is a question for you Kanedog. Why are 850s making it 14,200 km without any issues?

That's easy to answer but I've given you and Brp enough free info. Go figure it out yourself. Take some of that 60% market share profit and give the customers you ripped off full trade in price that they paid on a new 2018 and retain the customers and loyalty. Or just keep quiet and present it as a win to the shareholders. It's funny that Brp sends a spin doctor to public forums to defend what is probably the biggest blunder is Ski Doo history. Too funny.

 

[maierch]

You two meatheads just go from thread to thread regurgitating the same $hit whilst giving each other handies?

Get a life.

The unfortunate part of this is, the loyal doolaide drinkers will continue to support BRP. If BRP is being quiet and not admitting issues, why would you support them?
I think the quickest way that BRP will listen is if you guys take your buying dollars elsewhere for a year or two.....go buy a Poo, go buy a Cat, go buy a Yamaha.....anything to show BRP you are upset with their performance. A drastic drop in market share will get noticed....quickly.

Bingo!
That right there is the correct answer.

 

[snochuk]

You two meatheads just go from thread to thread regurgitating the same $hit whilst giving each other handies?

Get a life.

View attachment 203936

Selfies are whats in actually.

And you hurt my feeling with your insinuations and vulgar pictures.
You are a bad person.

Now back on topic for more on the wobbly clutch.

 

[Cat401]

You two meatheads just go from thread to thread regurgitating the same $hit whilst giving each other handies?

Get a life.

lol....hit a nerve maierch? I am not bashing your product, although there is plenty of material to go on....I am suggesting a solution that will force a company, who seems to be avoiding the issue, to take action. What's wrong with that?

If you have a better solution, by all means post it. I have seen that when buyers speak by spending elsewhere, companies take notice very quickly.

You have a good day. ...feel free to fill out the hurt feelers report if my posts offend you.

 

[Daag44]

Communiqué to come clean

https://www.snowandmud.com/images/styles/snow/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Daag44 https://www.snowandmud.com/images/styles/snow/buttons/viewpost-right.png
But what was the Maximum Belt Temperature??? Belts are not a warranty item. Whatever problem you need to figure out what it is. Getting the right equipment is less expensive than the price of two belts, so the price cannot be an excuse."

i think daag you have some good points but it seams what is working in Quebec trails is not similar to what we see out west.. The load put on the drive system is not even comparable out west, with days that sleds are completely submerged in heavy snow to the top of the bars..puts a load that cannot be dictated out east or in snow x races.. I have ridden those conditions with guys this year alone from Quebec that all of said they never seen conditions like that ever, and see how hard these sleds must work just alone to stay afloat

This is why so many of us feel a mountain sled cannot be tested out east, because problems just like we are seeing appear..in our group of 850s this year all the hard riders are having problems, riders that don't ride as hard, are having better success.. This don't make it right or wrong on how you ride.. First guys in on a five foot dump to a area should not be penalized for being there first.. So what has changed from last year?.

yes the G4 is ten more hp, over 800 but a few of us also ride turbos on t3s for years and make much more hp and track speed with bigger tracks and still don't have primary temps or blow belts like the G4 in similar conditions.. I Been saying it from the first reveiw I gave the G4 in January that the pdrive is not getting power to the snow, and when we did a belt temp comparison it was 50degrees hotter than the tra and I was bigger hp on a good long pull

the wobble primary might make perfect sense for the trail riders doing 300 miles out east, but that is one thing I can honestly never had out west is vibration hand problems, chest deep snow up a mountain, arms squeezing bars and veins running with adrenalin, mind running 100 miles a hour is the only feel I get.. Mountain riders only put on 50miles a day if we are lucky, most times we are out of fuel by then..

If your with brp, and want a happy mountain coustmer for next year listen up.. Make a stronger bulkhead, motor mounts that hold motor in place, a primary that is efficient, and calibrated properly. runs cool, no wobble, a better belt( like gates or Carlisle make) fit seven tooth drivers or eight if possible and get a stronger skid,(less dartyness) we don't need travel when in four feet of fresh.. Only use trails to get to riding areas

hope your listening..

Nice post Fred!

BRP has a mountain test center in Grand Lake Colorado. What I find a shame is that you didn't get the support needed to lower the belt temps. That is one thing that BRP needs to change, and I have listed suggestions. After a complete season and I don't know how many belts, obviously you would be left with the only possible conclusion that the the clutch was not tested adequately and cannot be made to work in the mountains. That is the part imo that BRP should address ASAP with a better communiqué to come clean.

 

[Daag44]

Re: Communiqué to come clean

100