Sidewinder Effect - where does four stroke go from here?

[skegpro]

So now that we have factory turbo four strokes, what is next?

The 998 is a 3 cylinder, can Yamaha knock a cylinder off and offer a 600 cc turbo engine that pushes 150+ HP that weighs the same as an 800 cc 2 stroke?

What is the future of engine technology?

 

[ippielb]

So now that we have factory turbo four strokes, what is next?

The 998 is a 3 cylinder, can Yamaha knock a cylinder off and offer a 600 cc turbo engine that pushes 150+ HP that weighs the same as an 800 cc 2 stroke?

What is the future of engine technology?

Only thing with knocking a cylinder off is it will have to be a high revving motor to produce the power. And it will lack bottom end unless engagement is at a high rpm. Making it hard on belts/clutching.

To be honest what I would like to see is a V block like in a twin motorcycle/ATV. That would allow for a lot narrower body panel, lose the transmission and stick on a CVT like on a sled.

Have a V block two stroke, one large throttle body, direct injection, short vertical air intake up by the gauge, big single pipe. It would open room up to run a water to air cooler with a 12v fan in the front and a bulkhead cooler.

Having an inline motor would mean a narrower bulkhead, allowing for longer control arms, shocks and more travel, making a better ride. Probably raise the centre of gravity a bit but I'm sure there would be over 20lbs weight loss involved having a shorter lighter crank, single throttle body, short air intake.

Then since you have such a narrow bulkhead, you could tighten up the tunnel, justifying a narrower track, losing weight again, shorter shafts even more weight loss. Snowbikes are doing fine. Maybe not as well in the bottomless but it's an option.

The only thing that one would have to have is a vertical steering post, with an extra knuckle giving it a little bit of slop in comparison to the systems most sleds have now. I just kinda rambled away. That's my idea.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Lund]

So now that we have factory turbo four strokes, what is next?

The 998 is a 3 cylinder, can Yamaha knock a cylinder off and offer a 600 cc turbo engine that pushes 150+ HP that weighs the same as an 800 cc 2 stroke?

What is the future of engine technology?

Yamaha already had, actually still has a 500cc twin 4stroke that can be put on boost for an exciting 135-145hp.....so yes they can but WHY? Guys buying into the 4stroke scene are looking for serious reliable power. 150+ doesn't fit the need. 200-250 yes.

 

[skegpro]

Only thing with knocking a cylinder off is it will have to be a high revving motor to produce the power. And it will lack bottom end unless engagement is at a high rpm. Making it hard on belts/clutching.

To be honest what I would like to see is a V block like in a twin motorcycle/ATV. That would allow for a lot narrower body panel, lose the transmission and stick on a CVT like on a sled.

Have a V block two stroke, one large throttle body, direct injection, short vertical air intake up by the gauge, big single pipe. It would open room up to run a water to air cooler with a 12v fan in the front and a bulkhead cooler.

Having an inline motor would mean a narrower bulkhead, allowing for longer control arms, shocks and more travel, making a better ride. Probably raise the centre of gravity a bit but I'm sure there would be over 20lbs weight loss involved having a shorter lighter crank, single throttle body, short air intake.

Then since you have such a narrow bulkhead, you could tighten up the tunnel, justifying a narrower track, losing weight again, shorter shafts even more weight loss. Snowbikes are doing fine. Maybe not as well in the bottomless but it's an option.

The only thing that one would have to have is a vertical steering post, with an extra knuckle giving it a little bit of slop in comparison to the systems most sleds have now. I just kinda rambled away. That's my idea.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Haha you put a lot of thought into that, maybe someone will steal this idea and run with it.

 

[skegpro]

Yamaha already had, actually still has a 500cc twin 4stroke that can be put on boost for an exciting 135-145hp.....so yes they can but WHY? Guys buying into the 4stroke scene are looking for serious reliable power. 150+ doesn't fit the need. 200-250 yes.

I respectfully disagree.

I think there is a whole bunch of people sitting back a wishing one day that a lightweight four-stroke will be an option.

And if we are being honest here 135-140 HP is the most my current 800cc two stroke is making at elevation.

Not everyone is willing to make the weight sacrafice for 200+ HP.

The 500cc phazer seemed to be a good engine, but the chassis was a joke.

Put that engine in the cat chassis or shrink the 998 to match the weight of a 800cc, factory turbo it and I think you will have a new cult of riders.

One: More reliable.

Two: Boosted, so horsepower at elevation.

Three: No weight penalty

Win,win,win.

I realize it may be a bit of a engineering quagmire but I really hope the Phazer Sidewinder comes to fruition.

 

[Woodsie1984]

FreeValve | Setting Engines Free

i can see this in the future for 4 stroke motors. Less weight and less motor size.

 

[Longhairfreak]

I choose big bore grunt over 800 2 stroke turbo power let alone a 4 stroke turbo any day. My Mountain Magic turbo is for sale. Any takers?

 

[skegpro]

I choose big bore grunt over 800 2 stroke turbo power let alone a 4 stroke turbo any day. My Mountain Magic turbo is for sale. Any takers?

Technology does scare some folks.

 

[LBZ]

FreeValve | Setting Engines Free

i can see this in the future for 4 stroke motors. Less weight and less motor size.

Very cool.
Be interesting to see how affordable this technology would be though if these engines were to hit the market. Doesn't look cheap.

 

[Lund]

Very cool.
Be interesting to see how affordable this technology would be though if these engines were to hit the market. Doesn't look cheap.

X2, before any of this will be seen on sleds and be affordable it will go through the automotive world. The technology has actually been around for over 10yrs. It just hasn't been reliable and affordable for production. I remember seeing this cam-less idea way back in early 2000.

 

[Lund]

I respectfully disagree.

I think there is a whole bunch of people sitting back a wishing one day that a lightweight four-stroke will be an option.

And if we are being honest here 135-140 HP is the most my current 800cc two stroke is making at elevation.

Not everyone is willing to make the weight sacrafice for 200+ HP.

The 500cc phazer seemed to be a good engine, but the chassis was a joke.

Put that engine in the cat chassis or shrink the 998 to match the weight of a 800cc, factory turbo it and I think you will have a new cult of riders.

One: More reliable.

Two: Boosted, so horsepower at elevation.

Three: No weight penalty

Win,win,win.

I realize it may be a bit of a engineering quagmire but I really hope the Phazer Sidewinder comes to fruition.

For Yamaha it has been about marketing to a certain market that non of the other's were doing. When Yamaha dropped the 2stroke line they knew they no longer would or could compete with the other three. And they have no intention too, they never had the intention of swamping the market with their sleds but rely on the reputation of their product to keep their customers and have taking over a market that the other three have completely ignored. While the other three fight for positioning in sales with a product that is similar in a segment of the sport that is the same, Yamaha has stepped back, concentrating on two main goal's, product reliability, fit and finish, thus keeping Yamaha's unsurpassed history of golden quality. Secondly, Yamaha build's the most powerful, most reliable snowmobile on the planet. Going after the muscle sled market in all segments of sledding, no other maker can compete.
Yamaha even though a very large corp, actually has the smallest department of all 4 manufactures for snowmobiles, even though everyone fights for a common market Yamaha has gone where the others have ignored and has been very successful at it.
I can assure anyone, Yamaha will never build another 2stroke snowmobile and they do not need to go head on with the 2stroke market as the others are doing. They are creating their own market in time and are dominating an ignored market...the muscle sled in all segments of sledding.

I personally like the direction they have taken. Now A/C is doing what your saying, mingling in both. So that market is being fulfilled by Cat.

 

[lilduke]

Maybe yamaha will come out with an electric sled?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTjDTe1hYd8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ymVpT0nEIg

 

[skegpro]

Maybe yamaha will come out with an electric sled?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTjDTe1hYd8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ymVpT0nEIg

Yeah and we can all sit at the boulder cabin plugged into solar chargers


So if a guy put a snowbike kit on an electric bike can you ride in a national park?

 

[skegpro]

For Yamaha it has been about marketing to a certain market that non of the other's were doing. When Yamaha dropped the 2stroke line they knew they no longer would or could compete with the other three. And they have no intention too, they never had the intention of swamping the market with their sleds but rely on the reputation of their product to keep their customers and have taking over a market that the other three have completely ignored. While the other three fight for positioning in sales with a product that is similar in a segment of the sport that is the same, Yamaha has stepped back, concentrating on two main goal's, product reliability, fit and finish, thus keeping Yamaha's unsurpassed history of golden quality. Secondly, Yamaha build's the most powerful, most reliable snowmobile on the planet. Going after the muscle sled market in all segments of sledding, no other maker can compete.
Yamaha even though a very large corp, actually has the smallest department of all 4 manufactures for snowmobiles, even though everyone fights for a common market Yamaha has gone where the others have ignored and has been very successful at it.
I can assure anyone, Yamaha will never build another 2stroke snowmobile and they do not need to go head on with the 2stroke market as the others are doing. They are creating their own market in time and are dominating an ignored market...the muscle sled in all segments of sledding.

I personally like the direction they have taken. Now A/C is doing what your saying, mingling in both. So that market is being fulfilled by Cat.

So then why now that yamacat has dropped a bunch of weight and are in a two-stroke chassis their sales and interest are going through the roof?

Seems to me people like lightweight powerful sleds, nomatter what is under the hood.

I do believe they are marketing to a different market, but they are a corporation that still likes to make money and I don't believe they were making the company proud selling a few nytros a year.

 

[skegpro]

Nissan is making sled size engines surely these engines can be scaled down more and dropped into a sled around 180 HP.




To put this in perspective the 800 Etec makes 149 HP and weighs in at 79.8 lbs.

850 etec weighs 93 lbs.

900 Ace weighs 114 lbs.

Anyone know what the 998 Genisis weighs in at?



https://www.rotax.com/en/products/rotax-powertrains/details/rotax-800-e-tec.html

 

[lilduke]

Lets not forget that Arctic Cat has had a 4 stroke factory turbo in that chassis since 2012.... Old news.


Electric Sleds I tell yeah, that's the way of the future?

 

[skegpro]

Lets not forget that Arctic Cat has had a 4 stroke factory turbo in that chassis since 2012.... Old news.


Electric Sleds I tell yeah, that's the way of the future?

True but that engine was not better than the other aftermarket turbo four strokes.

Lots of lag, and wasn't that dependable.

 

[lilduke]

True but that engine was not better than the other aftermarket turbo four strokes.

Lots of lag, and wasn't that dependable.

Yeah over the last 5 years they made improvements for sure. Still old news though.

 

[ABMax24]

Many have thought that a turbo 4-stroke has been a revolutionary idea in snowmobile technology, from the RX-1, Apex, Nytro, and Viper platforms with aftermarket turbos to the arctic cat 1100 turbo and the new turbo Sidewinder. Yet Ski-Doo, Arctic Cat and Polaris all keep going strong with 800 and now 850 2-strokes. The fact of the matter is you can't put lipstick on a pig or in this case a turbo on a fat 4-stroke and make it a winner.

The weight is ultimately what keeps people from buying these machines, and until you can make a 4-stroke weigh under 450lbs 2-strokes will dominate.

 

[skegpro]

Many have thought that a turbo 4-stroke has been a revolutionary idea in snowmobile technology, from the RX-1, Apex, Nytro, and Viper platforms with aftermarket turbos to the arctic cat 1100 turbo and the new turbo Sidewinder. Yet Ski-Doo, Arctic Cat and Polaris all keep going strong with 800 and now 850 2-strokes. The fact of the matter is you can't put lipstick on a pig or in this case a turbo on a fat 4-stroke and make it a winner.

The weight is ultimately what keeps people from buying these machines, and until you can make a 4-stroke weigh under 450lbs 2-strokes will dominate.

Do you think it's possible?