Near-Miss Avalanche Video Feb 2016

[Keith Brown]

Hey I ride with two young single guys in their early 20s (my sons) they both have Avalanche training. Both have a higher tolerance for risk then I would like in spite of my constantly cautioning of this or that risk. I recently completed my AST 2 and during a frank discussion relating to a particularly inviting open face and managing the risks on it. The instructor who was eminently qualified on the subject of avalanches started by saying that since he has had children his own risk tolerance has been reduced drastically, which seemed very reasonable. So to deem someone a idiot for demonstrating risky behaviour beyond what exceeds our personal limit is ridiculous. (That is unless you had a very boring life growing up and never strayed far from your mothers apron strings). This shouldn't stop you from stepping up to voice your concerns if you feel it is appropriate. It could just make the difference. However as someone who often rides with sledders who have a higher risk tolerance. I do my best to curb risky behaviour and manage the risks that do occur to the best of my ability with the resources I have. As far as events like this damaging sledders reputation I don't see it. Sledders that ignore Caribou closures do far more damage to our reputation. The loss of a sledder has little effect on the public at large. Other than the love ones left behind there's not a lot of long term damage.

 

[101110101101]

If people are inexperienced they should have enough common sense to realize they don't know what they are doing and make ultra conservative terrain decisions. Maybe I am not the norm but I came out of AST1 not confident that I could rescue my buddy but positive that I don't ever want to have to. It also highlighted how little I know and understand about snowpack and terrain features in the backcountry so I continue to make conservative choices when out there.

I really like your approach to things.

 

[Barker]

If people are inexperienced they should have enough common sense to realize they don't know what they are doing and make ultra conservative terrain decisions. Maybe I am not the norm but I came out of AST1 not confident that I could rescue my buddy but positive that I don't ever want to have to. It also highlighted how little I know and understand about snowpack and terrain features in the backcountry so I continue to make conservative choices when out there.

So how do you know that your choices are ultra conservative and the right ones? If you feel you know so little. This is the false confidence I'm referring to. You were never taught how to manage terrain properly, but somehow you feel you can conservatively. So are your conservative choices really conservative? Ast1 does not teach you enough about terrain travel to do it properly yet people are coming out of them thinking they are making conservative choices. A lot of these multi burial, multiple death avalanches are individuals that have AST1.
If you are coming out of AST1 feeling, you know so little, why are people not taking it to the next level?

 

[ferniesnow]

You're referring to things that you have learnt over your time being in Avalanche terrain. You cannot refer to these things as common sense. Your list goes on and on, but people just don't get it. Is because they haven't been taught these things. The average person doesn't know that your open face hills with rocks showing are weak points in the snow pack. You refer to debris piles, lots of people would say common sense says "this already slid, I'm safe it won't slide again." They're not putting together that these are red flags. I agree you don't have to dig a pit everywhere you go. But a lot of people get done there AST1 course, with the conference that if a slide would occur I can get my buddy out. This is true you should have a pretty good idea by this time to use your equipment. The problem is, no one has taught them how to get from point A to point B without getting caught in one, Or getting your whole group caught in one. Most of these courses are made from a ski background, not snowmobiles. Sleds cover a vast area and quickly. I think they should concentrate more on managing terrain, and traveling it.

I'm not going to get into "avalanche course" bashing here but my AST1 course was an eye opener and it taught me a lot. If you feel you didn't learn enough, please go back and take another course. Prior to my AST1, I had managed on one day courses and seminars. With my past experience and field education, I was very pleased with what was presented, taught, and learned in my two days of my AST1 course. Red flags are a daily observation (alpine winds, snow balls coming down, slab releases, small stuffs, whumphing, fracture lines in the alpine, cornice build ups, etc.) and one has to be in tune to the back country and in a sort of defensive mode (kind of like driving a car).

I do see what you are saying but like Bnorth says, "common sense" is lacking. There is enough education through forums, the media, and companions that people riding in the back country should have some idea of what they are getting into. If one has been riding for any length of time, they should definitely have a clue about debris piles, rock covered slopes, and even slopes with the tops of trees sticking out (another source of a weak point and common starting point of a fracture line). Yes, some will say that small debris pile is an indication that it is safe but give me a break. They are flirting with danger and they should have the common sense to know it.

Way too many people get away with pushing the envelope and that develops a culture so to speak. On one day, as snopro says, "play with the bull and sooner or late they will get the horn". I am a conservative rider because I want to come home and ride another day.

 

[Bnorth]

So how do you know that your choices are ultra conservative and the right ones? If you feel you know so little. This is the false confidence I'm referring to. You were never taught how to manage terrain properly, but somehow you feel you can conservatively. So are your conservative choices really conservative? Ast1 does not teach you enough about terrain travel to do it properly yet people are coming out of them thinking they are making conservative choices. A lot of these multi burial, multiple death avalanches are individuals that have AST1.
If you are coming out of AST1 feeling, you know so little, why are people not taking it to the next level?

I'd say it's impossible to know if you're always making the right decision but it's pretty easy to make conservative decisions. If you look at a slope and have doubts about it, don't ride it. Really it's that simple. See a slope above a depression in the terrain, stay out of the terrain trap. Play it safe and don't try to be an all star out there. Personally I would prefer to do AST2 with one of my riding groups but haven't been able to put one together. I will likely do it myself next season.

 

[pipes]

I personally think that the ast1 course is just an introduction to how to use the gear. This is giving people false confidence in knowing what they're doing out there.

I disagree. The AST1 course did an awesome job of teaching me a thing or two of identifying questionable terrain. Not to say that an AST2 course would not make that much difference. Knowledge is power, and the more power you have to battle against mother nature the better your odds. Keep in mind though that no matter how much knowledge (power) you have mother nature always has an ace up her sleeve and if she chooses to play it, you loose.

 

[Barker]

I disagree. The AST1 course did an awesome job of teaching me a thing or two of identifying questionable terrain. Not to say that an AST2 course would not make that much difference. Knowledge is power, and the more power you have to battle against mother nature the better your odds. Keep in mind though that no matter how much knowledge (power) you have mother nature always has an ace up her sleeve and if she chooses to play it, you loose.

Mother Nature doesn't have aces up her sleeve, her cards are all out there in plain sight for you to read. It's up to you if you want to see them. It's your risks and levels of risk you want to take when you're out there. Everyone on here seems to know what they are doing, and they seem to know how to mitigate risk. But every year we are sending condolences to the families of good people on this site. Due to situations that shouldn't of happened. It's hard to talk about, it's even harder to put your egos aside and say hey we or I fawked up, what can we do so this doesn't happen again. Where did we go wrong. I've had to do this myself.

 

[Rbrduk]

After reading this thread, here is my opinion. I have done ast1 and 2.

After doing ast2, I've always told the peeps I ride with that ast1 gives you enough training to be dangerous. It covers the basics of traveling in avy terrain.
This is not a shot at the ast training providers. I also believe that this training should be renewed every few years. It's like cpr, you forget a lot if you don't use it.

 

[Keith Brown]

Mother Nature doesn't have aces up her sleeve, her cards are all out there in plain sight for you to read. It's up to you if you want to see them. It's your risks and levels of risk you want to take when you're out there. Everyone on here seems to know what they are doing, and they seem to know how to mitigate risk. But every year we are sending condolences to the families of good people on this site. Due to situations that shouldn't of happened. It's hard to talk about, it's even harder to put your egos aside and say hey we or I fawked up, what can we do so this doesn't happen again. Where did we go wrong. I've had to do this myself.

I like your poker analogy but I am not so sure that we can see mother natures cards all the time. In fact that bitch bluffs a lot. Some sledders call that bluff with a "all in" call. On the occasions when its not a bluff the "all in" call often ends with a fatality/s. Face it the most experienced most well educated avalanche experts can not predict avalanches with certainty. hence 5 levels of risk and confidence factors in the avalanche report. I think that Avalanche Canada does a awesome job of the daily avalanche bulletin using the science, field reports and weather available to them. The bulletin is important part of plan your day,but there is no guaranty. Its important to read the fine print. As far as common sense go who the f#ck knows about avalanches from every day life?? AST 1 is a awesome course that illustrates the risks of avalanches to any thinking persons which is a eye opener to the overwhelming majority of people who take it!

 

[Barker]

I like your poker analogy but I am not so sure that we can see mother natures cards all the time. In fact that bitch bluffs a lot. Some sledders call that bluff with a "all in" call. On the occasions when its not a bluff the "all in" call often ends with a fatality/s. Face it the most experienced most well educated avalanche experts can not predict avalanches with certainty. hence 5 levels of risk and confidence factors in the avalanche report. I think that Avalanche Canada does a awesome job of the daily avalanche bulletin using the science, field reports and weather available to them. The bulletin is important part of plan your day,but there is no guaranty. Its important to read the fine print. As far as common sense go who the f#ck knows about avalanches from every day life?? AST 1 is a awesome course that illustrates the risks of avalanches to any thinking persons which is a eye opener to the overwhelming majority of people who take it!

I'm not saying ast1 is not a good course, but people can't just stop there. I agree with some of what you're saying. The sledder going "all in" as you say, is their risk level they want to take. Everyone's is different. There is a chance that some of the chit I decide to do if it were to rip I may not make it, but I have a pretty good assessment in my head of the chances of that happening are. Whether it be likely or not. My risk level, I know the dangers and possible outcome. My riding group also knows this. But as I'm doing this I'am the only person in danger at that time. This is why I can't really place judgment on watching a video of one person going up a face if he's the only person exposed, I don't know what assessment he/she made the day or their risk levels. What people need to realize is as soon as you start having multiple people involve in a side, straight up blunt they fawked up.

 

[pfi572]

"But as I'm doing this I'am the only person in danger at that time. "
Kind of a selfish statement don't you think?
If chit goes sideways you don't think you are putting others in danger?

"What people need to realize is as soon as you start having multiple people involve in a side, straight up blunt they fawked up."

Without being onsite or knowing what led up to the incident you can only speculate .