Grooming costs

[Summiteer]

It was brought up at our club meeting last night that this year, with the cost of fuel and operators, the grooming here will eat up all the money raised by the purchase of 300 trail passes either in late December or early January. We generally sell right around 300 annual passes in the whole season as well as a couple of hundred day passes. Of course grooming usually goes on until early March depending on the weather and snow conditions. Costs are the same for clubs everywhere, don't be a parasite, if you ride the trails, buy a pass.......

 

[catinthehat]

The Cranbrook Snowmobile Club offsets some of the fuel costs by having "groomer sponsors". For a set donation a business gets their name on a huge sign at the parking lot as well as a membership in the club. It is through the generosity of these businesses that we are able to keep our grooming operation going as we ( like you ) would never raise enough just through passes to keep going.

 

[Ministik Man]

This is a huge problem for Alberta Clubs

One that was tried to be addressed at the ASA General Meetings

There is no question that clubs can not support their groomer programs on just the sale of ASA Trail Passes - the program needs a huge subsity by Corporate Sponsorship. But that brings into play a whole new job a 1 club member to just look after Corporate Sponsorship each and every year.

You are lucky to sell that many ASA Trail Passes - TCSC sells areound 150 ASA TrailPasses (Max) and the revenue at $23.50 per pass back to the club equals $3,525.00 and if 1/2 goes to groomer operations thats only $1762.50 per year. Your fuel bill is more than that per month in January & February...

PURCHASE PRICES:
Break down our Bombardier BR180 Groomer/Drag operations
BR180/mogaul master drag Purchase Price $85,000.00
5Th Wheel trailer for groomer $11,000.00
Misc equipment $4,000.00
Groomer package $100,000.00

ASA Paid for only $2,500.00 of the $100,000.00 bill - TCSC, Casino and LOTS of Corporate Sponsors paid the remaining $97,500.00 for a groomer to groomer ASA Trails - the is only 2.5% of the bill

OPERATIONS:
FUEL:
I would have to say there is about a 50/50 split between fuel costs and maintenance costs (Minus Accidents)
To run the 180HP Bombardier BR180 pulling a Mogul Master Drag 18-08 it will burn 200ltrs in 12 hours or 16 ltrs per hour. (Say $20.00/hr on fuel)
It generaly takes us 24 hours to groom 200km (102km both directions) and uses around 400ltrs ($400.00 fuel)

That is the easy part to calculate fuel the had part is repairs and maintenance

MAINTENANCE COSTS per season:
Hauling to and from the staging areas, repairs / servicing = $1000.00
Basic oil change, 2 fuel filters, Air filter = $400.00
Greaseing the groomer & drags some 30 nipples - 4 tubes of grease per season = $50.00
As our trail system has rocks on the shore lines we tend to break track cleats which are $75.00 each by 4 per season = $300.00
one hydrolic hose replaced per season = $150.00

BASIC SEASONAL COSTS:
If you were to take a rough estimate at 4 complete grooming per season we would see about.
FUEL - 4 groomings (200km) X $400.00 = $1,600.00
Mainteance for the season (No accidents / surprises) = 1,900.00
So about $3,500.00 for season

BUT it will always be the accident / surprise that breaks the bank and one you can not truely budget for....
Hydostatic pumps/drive motors - $10,000.00each
Diesel engine - $10,000.00
Computer - $5,000.00
Track belting - $2,000.00
Etc. Etc.

ACCIDENTS / SURPRISES:
How does a club prepair for big maintenance on these huge machines and budget for them???
We have operated our large BR180 since 2008 since then it has broke the club...
The ASA is not willing to assit clubs even in times of crisis
In 2009 while grooming we had broke 3 track cleats crawling the shore line, so we moved into the ice 10' from shore. Then we hit a spring 10' from the shore and dropped the groomer into 2-3 feet of water. No big deal it should crawl out as it has cleated tracks - not a chance - it took 24 hours - a huge excavator and trailer to recover it the 10' onto the shore at a cost of $7,000.00 for rescue equipment - how does a club budget for that!!! The ASA has an Emergency Contigency plan to help clubs but paid TCSC $0.00 for that rescue

The groomer got water into the hydrostat system and costed an additional $21,000,00 in repairs at Prinoth

Total accident from 10' from shore in 2-3 feet of water - $28,000.00 the ASA Paid $0.00 for those repairs - TCSC and Corporate Sponsors paid the bill and took 3 years to recover from that - but as a club we survived (by the way the ASA Office has $390,000.00 in its bank account while as a club we were unable to pay the basic bills to operate...) so does the ASA Support CLUBS - not at all....

Besides the $28,000.00 repair bill there are basic maintance costs..


So when you can only save enough to pay for the actual costs to operate for the season how can you budget for an Accident/surprise...thats when the ASA Should help out (they have $390,000.00 in their/OUR bank ..... Am I missing something here or should there be more support from the ASA if your club has a groomers????

I like this thread and hope all clubs put there input into this, as it seams no one wants to take about club budgets / Finances / money which is to bad because we are all in this together - each time a club folds it slowly kills our sport.

Here is how we get Corporate Sponsorship through advertising at $1,000.00 per season

 

[LB_]

Grooming sounds unsustainable. Have to wonder whether it's worth it.

 

[old mountain man]

This is a huge problem for Alberta Clubs

One that was tried to be addressed at the ASA General Meetings

There is no question that clubs can not support their groomer programs on just the sale of ASA Trail Passes - the program needs a huge subsity by Corporate Sponsorship. But that brings into play a whole new job a 1 club member to just look after Corporate Sponsorship each and every year.

You are lucky to sell that many ASA Trail Passes - TCSC sells areound 150 ASA TrailPasses (Max) and the revenue at $23.50 per pass back to the club equals $3,525.00 and if 1/2 goes to groomer operations thats only $1762.50 per year. Your fuel bill is more than that per month in January & February...

PURCHASE PRICES:
Break down our Bombardier BR180 Groomer/Drag operations
BR180/mogaul master drag Purchase Price $85,000.00
5Th Wheel trailer for groomer $11,000.00
Misc equipment $4,000.00
Groomer package $100,000.00

ASA Paid for only $2,500.00 of the $100,000.00 bill - TCSC, Casino and LOTS of Corporate Sponsors paid the remaining $97,500.00 for a groomer to groomer ASA Trails - the is only 2.5% of the bill

OPERATIONS:
FUEL:
I would have to say there is about a 50/50 split between fuel costs and maintenance costs (Minus Accidents)
To run the 180HP Bombardier BR180 pulling a Mogul Master Drag 18-08 it will burn 200ltrs in 12 hours or 16 ltrs per hour. (Say $20.00/hr on fuel)
It generaly takes us 24 hours to groom 200km (102km both directions) and uses around 400ltrs ($400.00 fuel)

That is the easy part to calculate fuel the had part is repairs and maintenance

MAINTENANCE COSTS per season:
Hauling to and from the staging areas, repairs / servicing = $1000.00
Basic oil change, 2 fuel filters, Air filter = $400.00
Greaseing the groomer & drags some 30 nipples - 4 tubes of grease per season = $50.00
As our trail system has rocks on the shore lines we tend to break track cleats which are $75.00 each by 4 per season = $300.00
one hydrolic hose replaced per season = $150.00

BASIC SEASONAL COSTS:
If you were to take a rough estimate at 4 complete grooming per season we would see about.
FUEL - 4 groomings (200km) X $400.00 = $1,600.00
Mainteance for the season (No accidents / surprises) = 1,900.00
So about $3,500.00 for season

BUT it will always be the accident / surprise that breaks the bank and one you can not truely budget for....
Hydostatic pumps/drive motors - $10,000.00each
Diesel engine - $10,000.00
Computer - $5,000.00
Track belting - $2,000.00
Etc. Etc.

ACCIDENTS / SURPRISES:
How does a club prepair for big maintenance on these huge machines and budget for them???
We have operated our large BR180 since 2008 since then it has broke the club...
The ASA is not willing to assit clubs even in times of crisis
In 2009 while grooming we had broke 3 track cleats crawling the shore line, so we moved into the ice 10' from shore. Then we hit a spring 10' from the shore and dropped the groomer into 3-4 feet of water. No big deal it should crawl out as it has cleated tracks - not a chance - it took 24 hours - a huge excavator and trailer to recover it the 10' onto the shore at a cost of $7,000.00 for rescue equipment - how does a club budget for that!!! The ASA has an Emergency Contigency plan to help clubs but paid TCSC $0.00 for that rescue

The groomer got water into the hydrostat system and costed an additional $21,000,00 in repairs at Prinoth

Total accident from 10' from shore in 3-4feet of water - $28,000.00 the ASA Paid $0.00 for those repairs - TCSC and Corporate Sponsors paid the bill and took 3 years to recover from that - but as a club we survived (by the way the ASA Office has $390,000.00 in its bank account while as a club we were unable to pay the basic bills to operate...) so does the ASA Support CLUBS - not at all....

Besides the $28,000.00 repair bill there are basic maintance costs..


So when you can only save enough to pay for the actual costs to operate for the season how can you budget for an Accident/surprise...thats when the ASA Should help out (they have $390,000.00 in their/OUR bank ..... Am I missing something here or should there be more support from the ASA if your club has a groomers????

I like this thread and hope all clubs put there input into this, as it seams no one wants to take about club budgets / Finances / money which is to bad because we are all in this together - each time a club folds it slowly kills our sport.

Here is how we get Corporate Sponsorship through advertising at $1,000.00 per season

And some people still bitch about the cost of a trail pass! Not many though.

 

[Summiteer]

Without the great corporate sponsors here and the incredible support we get from the Town of Whitecourt and County of Woodlands as well as local SRD, the Trailblazers would be dead in the water. Not to mention the core STP that show up every time there is work to do.

 

[brew_doo]

Without the great corporate sponsors here and the incredible support we get from the Town of Whitecourt and County of Woodlands as well as local SRD, the Trailblazers would be dead in the water. Not to mention the core STP that show up every time there is work to do.

We are an exceptionally lucky club to have such great support from these folks... and great volunteers too. It takes a pile of good people & companies to keep the club alive and functioning.

 

[Sledderglen]

Ministik Man we have talked about this accident of your club many times. The ASA can`t support any club who dumps their groomer in the water. That was a accident. Did the ASA help you with insurance issues? Did you get insurance coverage? What would of happened if you got ASA money and insurance money. Way more to this story than what was posted BUT this is not the place to bring up mistakes both on TCSC and ASA. Brian maybe other clubs will post how many had groomers fall into water. Fox creek,Whitecourt,La Crete,High Level just to name a few have all had this happen. How much of the ASA money would be left after all these. The ASA has worked with the insurance company on coverage for this kind of accident I think. Does it cost for insurance YES you never mentioned insurance coverage in your cost estimate or what was payed to you from the insurance. The ASA money goes to many other areas not just club maintance.
Brian we all know that there are hundreds of riders out there that do whatever they can to dodge buying a Trail Pass. We need support from these riders to purchase a pass and a club membership so we can grow strong in $$ and in numbers to push the big supporter the Government to get off their butt and get all users paying into trail maintance. Will it be enough probally not. When I see reports of the Quebec Governemnt giving the clubs millions of dollars to purchase new groomers and tourism dollars to support maintance of the trails it makes me mad. Our government spins us crap and more studies and more committees to study and advise from the studies and committes.
I will finish my rant now but in closing thats why the Fort Saskatchewan club grooms with a Scandic SWT and a 5ftx9.5 ft groomer system. We can afford to run it all season. We would like a nice UTV with a heated cab on tracks BUT we also need $20,000.00 to make it happen. So we sell our 100 or so trail passes ask for help when we can. Who doesnt mind grooming a trail at 20 below by yourself out of cell range at 10 at night on the back of a Scandic. No cushy heated cab,music hot coffee,etc. OK now I`m whinning to much. Like many things in life. "Is it a want or need".

 

[ridndirty]

Ministik Man we have talked about this accident of your club many times. The ASA can`t support any club who dumps their groomer in the water. That was a accident. Did the ASA help you with insurance issues? Did you get insurance coverage? What would of happened if you got ASA money and insurance money. Way more to this story than what was posted BUT this is not the place to bring up mistakes both on TCSC and ASA. Brian maybe other clubs will post how many had groomers fall into water. Fox creek,Whitecourt,La Crete,High Level just to name a few have all had this happen. How much of the ASA money would be left after all these. The ASA has worked with the insurance company on coverage for this kind of accident I think. Does it cost for insurance YES you never mentioned insurance coverage in your cost estimate or what was payed to you from the insurance. The ASA money goes to many other areas not just club maintance.
Brian we all know that there are hundreds of riders out there that do whatever they can to dodge buying a Trail Pass. We need support from these riders to purchase a pass and a club membership so we can grow strong in $$ and in numbers to push the big supporter the Government to get off their butt and get all users paying into trail maintance. Will it be enough probally not. When I see reports of the Quebec Governemnt giving the clubs millions of dollars to purchase new groomers and tourism dollars to support maintance of the trails it makes me mad. Our government spins us crap and more studies and more committees to study and advise from the studies and committes.
I will finish my rant now but in closing thats why the Fort Saskatchewan club grooms with a Scandic SWT and a 5ftx9.5 ft groomer system. We can afford to run it all season. We would like a nice UTV with a heated cab on tracks BUT we also need $20,000.00 to make it happen. So we sell our 100 or so trail passes ask for help when we can. Who doesnt mind grooming a trail at 20 below by yourself out of cell range at 10 at night on the back of a Scandic. No cushy heated cab,music hot coffee,etc. OK now I`m whinning to much. Like many things in life. "Is it a want or need".

It's actually not that hard to figure out, even if the ASA payed full pop for the 4 groomers that went swimming, if each one cost $28,000 to get back on the trail, it would total $112,000. Take that out of the $390,000 that the ASA has in the bank, and they would still have $278,000 left sitting there gaining interest. It's no wonder the government looks the other way and sends money to other non profit organizations, that are truly NON PROFIT.

 

[maxwell]

It's actually not that hard to figure out, even if the ASA payed full pop for the 4 groomers that went swimming, if each one cost $28,000 to get back on the trail, it would total $112,000. Take that out of the $390,000 that the ASA has in the bank, and they would still have $278,000 left sitting there gaining interest. It's no wonder the government looks the other way and sends money to other non profit organizations, that are truly NON PROFIT.

I would think they would need that amount of cash lying around for things like the sled show. Hey probly have to pay for that up front? And then he Asa receives payment for the vendors? Not sure if that's how it works but it could easily be 200g to rent that hall for the sled show

 

[ridndirty]

Assuming that it is $200,000 to rent the hall, that still leaves $78,000 sitting there. A fair bit of cash that could help clubs that are struggling. Every vendor, and up until this year, every club that had a booth at the show, pays up front for the right to be a part of one of the ASA's biggest fund raisers. I'm not against the ASA, It's important for all the clubs to have one voice, strength in numbers, etc. Alberta is the cheapest province in Canada to ride a sled on groomed trails. Pay once for your trail pass, (most of that money goes to the ASA, not the club you write in as the club you want to support.) and you can ride any groomed trail in the province that is a part of the ASA.

 

[Sledderglen]

It's actually not that hard to figure out, even if the ASA payed full pop for the 4 groomers that went swimming, if each one cost $28,000 to get back on the trail, it would total $112,000. Take that out of the $390,000 that the ASA has in the bank, and they would still have $278,000 left sitting there gaining interest. It's no wonder the government looks the other way and sends money to other non profit organizations, that are truly NON PROFIT.

You should go to their website and read what they do with the money. Riders only think they have that money to give out to maintain trails. They have many other programs to deal with all year long.
Who said that each groomer would only cost 28,000 to repair. Insurance is necessary to have.
How does groups like STARS get to keep that much money on hand? They are a non-profit. Look elsewhere for other groups.
The government looks elsewhere because they dont care about snomobiling because the general user rides in BC or fails to get involved and get squeaky to force the government to get involved.
Easy to blame a peer for all the stuff going wrong.
JMHO

 

[BeeZee62]

Having read through all of these posts thus far, I can't help but be reminded of the early days of the Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs (OFSC). It took a lot of organization, hard work and lobbying at the Provincial level in order to bring all clubs together into an organized and cohesive voice. Firstly, the ASA should be lobbying the provincial government to make it mandatory that all sleds be registered, insured and have a valid annual ASA membership sticker to be ridden anywhere on public lands. Incorporated into the registration costs are riders which aide the ASA with general insurance and liability issues. Being pulled over by the RCMP or other police force in the province and not having registration, insurance and a valid ASA membership results in stiff fines. While the fines do nothing directly to assist clubs they do act as a good deterrent/incentive to get on board with the ASA and your local clubs.

While I do appreciate that in a lot of areas within Alberta it's just not practical to have groomed trails, such as most areas east of the mountains due to wind erosion of the snow - grooming just doesn't make sense. However, within such areas negotiations with local land owners etc by clubs and the ASA can garner greater access to riding areas, along with liability coverage which the ASA and local clubs can provide. (refer back to the rider portion of registration which offsets such costs).

With cohesive organization there is a lot which can be gained for all Alberta sledders, clubs and local communities. In order to tap into the commercial profitability of sledding for our communities we need to be properly organized and governed as a collective group. The work that has been done by the various clubs within the province has been admirable thus far, however without a more focused province wide initiative the problems and issues discussed thus far in this forum will continue to erode the funding availability at the local club level.

Bottom line, if you want to sled in Alberta - a "have" province with the lowest unemployment rate in the country and the highest average wage - pay up to sled - regardless of where you reside in the province. This will generate the funding base upon which clubs can survive (in addition to their own fund raising activities). You purchase an ASA membership whether your community has a club or not - and you can ride any trail, anywhere in the province. Organized clubs sponsor membership drives and based upon how many members they can sign up, this determines their baseline funding support from the ASA.

Empowering the ASA to act on our collective behalf, coupled with mandatory registration and insurance requirements will ensure the continued growth of snowmobiling in the province as a whole and will generate revenues for local communities that support our sport.