Turbo vs. Supercharger??

What's your thoughts? Anyone been around both?
I'm thinking of boosting in the future and you read a lot about turbos but not much about chargers. Just trying to get a better feel on the right direction for me. Thanks!

A SMALL COMPANY IN UTAH(I THINK IT WAS) CALLED MOUNTAIN PERFORMANCE, SPECIALIZES IN YAMMIES.... THEY HAVE SUPERCHARGER AND TURBOCHARGER ARTICLES ON THEIR WEBSITE. I WOULD CHECK THEM OUT AND SEE WHAT THEY ARE TELLING YOU BETWEEN THE LINES. I GATHER THE SUPERCHARGER IS MORE RELIABLE WITH NO TURBO LAG AND ABOUT THE SAME AMOUNT OF PONIES OUTPUT...... Mountain Performance, Inc. Yamaha Snowmobile Mountain Specialists ...... CHECK 'EM OUT, I DON'T THINK YOU'LL BE DISAPPOINTED. LET ME KNOW YOUR THOUGHTS TOO.
YOU MIGHT ALSO CHECK OUT BENDER RACING???

Thanks for the info. I'll check it out later today.

ENJOY THE SITE, I JUST WENT ON AGAIN...... DARE TO DREAM, EARL, DARE TO DREAM......... YOU'LL ONLY BE HELD BACK BY WHAT YOU CAN AFFORD!!!

Lag is almost or in some cases completely a non issue in modern turbos, for your average to weekend Superman rider. Set-up Set-up Set-up Set-up Set-up YES ITS ALL IN THE SETUP. MCX makes the best unit to SET-UP for a Yammie. If you need BDSO,BISO or Fairview line shots you will need to run multiple stages. Dont let old beliefs about lag sway your decision. I used to like alot of lag it gives you one last second to kiss your azz goodbye. Good Luck. BoooYaaah

snotrocket said:

Lag is almost or in some cases completely a non issue in modern turbos, for your average to weekend Superman rider. Set-up Set-up Set-up Set-up Set-up YES ITS ALL IN THE SETUP. MCX makes the best unit to SET-UP for a Yammie. If you need BDSO,BISO or Fairview line shots you will need to run multiple stages. Dont let old beliefs about lag sway your decision. I used to like alot of lag it gives you one last second to kiss your azz goodbye. Good Luck. BoooYaaah

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LMAO!! Thanks for the insight to the newer turbos. Please excuse my ignorants but what do you mean by "BDSO,BISO or Fairview line shots"? I used to ride a V-max 4 that had a very early turbo on it. I'm told that the sled used to hold the speed-run record in West Yellowstone for two years straight. Dave Lloyed from here in Idaho wrote the book for the turbo that was used on it. That thing was crazy fast. Probably not much compared to some of the new monsters that are being built these days. They figured it was puting out around 225+ hp.

BDSO stand for Big Dog Shoot Out it is held every very North of Vancouver BC. And the BISO Stands for Big Iron Shoot Out in Revelstoke BC, they are races they hold in the Mountains meaning sleds line up and race up the mountain, big HP sleds!!! It show some of the racing on Various sled video....Check it out you'll be Blown away!!

The Fairview event should be a real power blown event this spring.Some of the best and biggest spooled sleds from Canada are heading down to run with the the biggest and best Americans. This event will settle many a keyboard battles. I will be attending the bash with the Fabster gang. If you need the answers to your ? the answers will be there.... no doubt. We should get a gang of S.M.ers to journey down there, this will be a dont miss event.Sat on Chads 700 plus h.p. rated R on thursday , scary just sitting on it, man I hate getting old.

We've (summitric and myself) had the change to visit with Mike Irman a few times over the last number of years. Your either "nuts" or "fearless" to do what they do. Me, I'm to...hate getting old.

snotrocket said:

The Fairview event should be a real power blown event this spring.Some of the best and biggest spooled sleds from Canada are heading down to run with the the biggest and best Americans. This event will settle many a keyboard battles. I will be attending the bash with the Fabster gang. If you need the answers to your ? the answers will be there.... no doubt. We should get a gang of S.M.ers to journey down there, this will be a dont miss event.Sat on Chads 700 plus h.p. rated R on thursday , scary just sitting on it, man I hate getting old.

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Irman [ yamma 11 ] is a top billing star in this Freak show.Its gonna be a gooder in Fairview. Nitrous, methane and laughing gas......................... life at its best!!!!!!!

Sounds very interesting. Fairview, ???? (state/country?). When?

I've always wanted to see this event but have a hard time giving up a days sledding for it. Who know, maybe this is the year?

snotrocket said:

Irman [ yamma 11 ] is a top billing star in this Freak show.Its gonna be a gooder in Fairview. Nitrous, methane and laughing gas......................... life at its best!!!!!!!

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I have heard SC can be better for on and off throtlle riding like boon dockingin the trees. Is this true? Alson seems alot cheaper to install a super charger less install, initial cost and alot of big boost turbos have to run straight race fuel where SC only need 50/50. Also alot of guys are installing low Compression pistons etc. on turboed sleds not needed on the SC.Correct me if I am wrong on any of this as I am just starting to read on this as well and trying to make the same decision.

Lighter turbines and shafts in modern turbos has made for minimal turbo lag. The lag can be measured but really cannot be felt. The turbo has advantages over a SC at times when at WOT and lower rpm. IMHO they have equal problems and advantages, just under different cicumstances; I score them even.

It is the reduced compression piston that scares me as I have seen too may engines with detonation problems, damage or/and destruction. The simple theory stands that if you add oxygen under pressure or through nitromethane mix or nitrous that compression ratio should reduced to prevent detenation. For the most part there are three ways to help prevent dentonation: Two head gaskets, a piston change, or a combustion chamber change.

The short story is: Two head gaskets will kill the engine through detonation; a lower compression piston will either control detonation or kill the engine; A combustion chamber change is the best solution to detonation caused by higher compression pressures.

If you check the air line between a compressor and the air tank, you'll find the line is very hot when the cpmpressor is running. Only a little bit of this heat is from friction in the compressor, most is a result of compression itself. The heat of this air line is directly ralated to the pressure of the air in it. It is this increase in heat that causes detonation.

Detonation is the collision of two flame fronts. One flame front started at the spark plug; the second started near the outside edge of the piston.

Detonation is controlled by temperature of the piston crown, even if the compressed fuel/air mixture has increased. The piston crown is mostly cooled by squish area. The squish area is the area of the head that is machined to match the piston crown (either flat or domed.) The clearance between the piston at TDC and head is very small (less than 0.15mm) in the squish area. This small clearance allows heat transfer from the piston crown to the head.

Therefore:
The use of two head gaskets increases the clearance of the squish area rendering it useless in controlling piston crown temperatures. The crown gets too hot around the edge and detonation begins. This is a sure way for killing an engine.

A change of piston to a lower compression piston works only if the piston is concave and the squish area is not reduced and if the increase in crown surface area is not so big that it cannot be effectively cooled. Careful choice of a piston is critical if this solution is used. This maybe the only option in some 4 strokes (thinking Genisis engines).

Increasing the CCs of the combustion area is the best solution, but it has it's problem too. Heads are available that are made with replaceable combustion chambers, but most available combustion chambers are smaller not larger. Machining the combustion chamber of an existing head is expensive and does weaken the head; the weakened head usually isn't a problem if it is machined well and torqued correctly. Increasing combustion chamber CCs on 4strokes is a problem due to valves.

One other way to cool the piston crown is to run a rich fuel/air mixture. Carbs are easy to work with but EFIs are more difficult. Rich mixtures are hard on spark plugs. And the most obvious problem with rich mixtures is that rich mixture result in lost Hp, which is counter-productive to installing the turbo or SC in the first place.

That'll be my .

HEY TWEEKER...GO TO Mountain Performance, Inc. Yamaha Snowmobile Mountain Specialists AND THEY TALK ABOUT THE PRO'S/CON'S OF TURBO'S AND SUPERCHARGERS..... THEY HAVE LOTS OF EXPERIENCE WITH BOTH AND CAN ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS. THEY SEEM TO BE LEANING MORE TOWARD THE SC LATELY......

Hey guys thanks for the input. I love yamahas but have been scared off these 4 strokes due to weight. The turbos and superchargers are what got me lookin this way again as they seem to have proven themselves and if anything can make up for weight it is HP. Great to hear your 2 cents Garry just the man I wanted to hear from on this. What you say makes alot of sense but from what I read these things are working and I haven't heard alot of bad feed back on them. Let me know if you have, as I am close to purchasing a SC'ed Apex from the states. From what I have seen the guys SCing the Genesis are not modifying the engine like the turbo guys (low comp. pistons and head gasket adjustments). With my limited knowledge this does not make sense because in a sense they are doing the same thing to make HP but in a different way. The only thing I see that is different is the Turbos are trying to get alot higher boost which may cause the need for more work. Most guys running the Mpi SC are only stage one and are only getting 10 pounds of boost where some of the turbos are pushing up to 16 pounds. There does seem to be alot of guys in the states runnig thes SC'ers with no issues. With 2 stroke sleds I still replace top ends around every 2-3 thousand KM to be safe. Do you know if or how often the four strokes with Turbos or SC's are. If I do buy one I am thinking SC and only stage one. They sure look like alot of fun for a low price compared to building a 2 stroke with over 200 HP. Let me know what you think. Oh by the way Garry when I seen this post I just got in from the garage. I rejetted the Griz to 170 main and put the clip from 4-5 and put the new diff in. Hope to be test driving it at your location on Wed. or Thurs.. Let me know if you can make either day and we will plan around you. Cheers

Gary, it must be hard to find helmets for that head with such a huge brain in it.

Doesn't the fact that you run at least 50/50 premium and race fuel take care of pre-detonation problems?

The thing about running a head shim is you can run premuim up to 12 psi.I'm pretty sure that you can not run anything over 8 psi on premuim without a head shim.I only have to mix 50/50 when i run from 12psi-15psi and I still have not ran over 12 psi down low and all I run in the mountain is 10 psi cause I get myself into trouble.But this year I'm going to try 15 psi.

snotrocket said:

Lag is almost or in some cases completely a non issue in modern turbos, for your average to weekend Superman rider. Set-up Set-up Set-up Set-up Set-up YES ITS ALL IN THE SETUP. MCX makes the best unit to SET-UP for a Yammie. If you need BDSO,BISO or Fairview line shots you will need to run multiple stages. Dont let old beliefs about lag sway your decision. I used to like alot of lag it gives you one last second to kiss your azz goodbye. Good Luck. BoooYaaah

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LOL! LMAO! HA! HA! HA!
catmando!