Snowmobile insurance in BC

52weekbreak · Dec 12, 2018

In support of what you are saying FH: https://www.icbc.com/vehicle-registration/specialty-vehicles/Pages/Off-road-vehicles.aspx

Something else you may need to consider is insurance brokers are classed as a "professional" in the same sense as a lawyer or account is. What this means is they can be sued if they fail to give good and useful advice. If they fail to inform someone that they "should" carry insurance regardless of where you ride and that person injures someone while riding, then that person may sue the broker for a professional omission. Could it be the broker is just attempting to discharge their professional obligation so they have a defense if someone tries to sue them later.

BC really just needs to follow Alberta's (and probably the rest of the country's) lead and just give up on these exceptions.

Mike270412 · Dec 12, 2018

Even $90 a year is peanuts .

dgiles said:
You may have gotten a smoking deal, but from Beaconand Got Toys, 2,000,000 is around $90/year. The basic 200,000 is $53. Not sure how any policy would only be $25 unless it is an add-on.

Mike270412 · Dec 12, 2018

Punctuation, Teach.

ferniesnow said:
Question still not answered; in a staging area on private land in BC, does one require liability insurance by law.

Lund · Dec 12, 2018

So out of curiosity, is a "groomed trail" considered a "plowed road" ???
In other words is what we consider the groom trail from the staging area at Owls head to the cabin OR the staging area at Boulder Mtn to it's cabin considered a "plowed road"??

Just asking, because after reading the Act i see nothing about snowmobile groomed trails.

tex78 · Dec 12, 2018

Lund said:
So out of curiosity, is a "groomed trail" considered a "plowed road" ???
In other words is what we consider the groom trail from the staging area at Owls head to the cabin OR the staging area at Boulder Mtn to it's cabin considered a "plowed road"??

Just asking, because after reading the Act i see nothing about snowmobile groomed trails.

Plowed is like they are logging and plowed, groomed trail is a unplowed or not active road

Lund · Dec 12, 2018

tex78 said:
Plowed is like they are logging and plowed, groomed trail is a unplowed or not active road

That is what I thought but with all this discussion I was thinking maybe not. We are on the same page then.

tex78 · Dec 12, 2018

Lund said:
That is what I thought but with all this discussion I was thinking maybe not. We are on the same page then.

Yes sir

Cableguy · Dec 12, 2018

I was explained this way
If the road and or parking lot is a government maintained (plowed/serviced) access area then sleds and or quads/atvs/bikes crossing or unloading
on this soil requires icbc insurance (min200k) That insurance does nothing for you in the back country on crown or private land
Oasis offers the optional liability coverage for that and the icbc min coverage does not
I personally would like to see the bcsf offer us the optional coverage in there policy same as the bcwf does It would be simpilier
icbc liabilty is not mandatory according to my broker
Our groomer plows the the first 5 km to the staging area so it is not government maintained

52weekbreak · Dec 13, 2018

Cableguy said:
I was explained this way
If the road and or parking lot is a government maintained (plowed/serviced) access area then sleds and or quads/atvs/bikes crossing or unloading
on this soil requires icbc insurance (min200k) That insurance does nothing for you in the back country on crown or private land
Oasis offers the optional liability coverage for that and the icbc min coverage does not
I personally would like to see the bcsf offer us the optional coverage in there policy same as the bcwf does It would be simpilier
icbc liabilty is not mandatory according to my broker
Our groomer plows the the first 5 km to the staging area so it is not government maintained

Sounds closer but still not quite right. I doubt the courts would allow ICBC liability coverage to apply only when an OHV is operated where, strictly speaking, it is not supposed to be operated (public roadways).

Shadam · Dec 13, 2018

We got totally miss led by icbc about insurance here in Golden. Yay! Another "discussion" with them.

Think of it this way, here in Golden if u don't have insurance don't unload. All trailheads I know of require insurance.

Feel free to flame me, and feel free to argue with the CO, coz u will be.

AreWeThereYet · Dec 13, 2018

Shadam said:
We got totally miss led by icbc about insurance here in Golden. Yay! Another "discussion" with them.

Think of it this way, here in Golden if u don't have insurance don't unload. All trailheads I know of require insurance.

Feel free to flame me, and feel free to argue with the CO, coz u will be.

This is what the BC federales do up here at Kakwa 40km trail in. On the Alberta side in, no one really checks for reg. or insurance,.. I haven't seen anyways. But once you cross the border into BC and at about km 12 they set up shop and check papers and hand out the tickets,.. or will waive if you prove you get you papers afterwards.

If they don't set up shop early,.. then they nab you at the Kakwa cabin. Going to these extreme they really must be hard up for cash,.. but in all honesty why not just have all correct licensing and insurance?

FernieHawk · Dec 13, 2018

Yes...technically if you are unloading at a ploughed FSR, you need 3rd party liability that can be provided by company’s other than ICBC. You only need the ICBC insurance and plate sticker when unloading at a parking area on the side of a highway. The difference is there are different legal acts for paved highways and FSRs.

acesup800 · Dec 13, 2018

Shadam said:
We got totally miss led by icbc about insurance here in Golden. Yay! Another "discussion" with them.

Think of it this way, here in Golden if u don't have insurance don't unload. All trailheads I know of require insurance.

Feel free to flame me, and feel free to argue with the CO, coz u will be.

Maybe next time ask them if they can actually provide the law they are trying to enforce or where to reference it. I know it is tough to argue on the snow, but someone at some point needs to take a stand, or just keep bending over for "the man".

FernieHawk · Dec 13, 2018

Also just thinking...if staging from a ploughed parking area adjacent to a ploughed FSR and you put your unloading ramp out into the un- ploughed area beside the road you would be unloading onto un-ploughed crown land.

Just talking about legalities....I already have insurance.

moyiesledhead · Dec 13, 2018

FernieHawk said:
That is exactly what I thought until I went to ICBC yesterday.

They are now issuing annual stickers for your plate if you want to be able to stage at plowed staging...the agent specifically mentioned the Morrissey staging area. Coal creek might be different because it is private property.

I’m not sure what the frick the real rules are.

Make them show you what act or legislation says so. ICBC can't just make up their own rules. There is no insurance that allows you to have a snowmobile on a plowed FSR contrary to the forest service road use regulation. There is no regulation that requires liability insurance on crown land.

moyiesledhead · Dec 13, 2018

LBZ said:
I took this from ICBC website. //uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181212/cf24719f4be387b515a007c576c69bdc.jpg

https://www.icbc.com/vehicle-registration/specialty-vehicles/Pages/Off-road-vehicles.aspx

That reads to me if you stage and ride on private land and don’t ride on or cross an fsr or crown land you are not required to have insurance or registration.

If you want to ride crown land you need registration and if you touch a public road or fsr with your machine you need third party liability.

Saying it on a website doesn't make it law. They're correct as far as they go, but neglect to quote the rest of the regulation that specifically exempts snowmobiles. They'd have been better off to just provide a link to the forest service road use regulation.

moyiesledhead · Dec 13, 2018

FernieHawk said:
Yes...technically if you are unloading at a ploughed FSR, you need 3rd party liability that can be provided by company’s other than ICBC.

Nope, technically you're breaking the law as per paragraph 3(3) of the forest service road use regulation. Insurance is irrelevant.

moyiesledhead · Dec 13, 2018

Lund said:
So out of curiosity, is a "groomed trail" considered a "plowed road" ???
In other words is what we consider the groom trail from the staging area at Owls head to the cabin OR the staging area at Boulder Mtn to it's cabin considered a "plowed road"??

Just asking, because after reading the Act i see nothing about snowmobile groomed trails.

That could actually be a dangerous question for us to ask because of the specific wording of the regulation.

"A person must not operate a snowmobile on a forest service road if it appears that the road has been snowplowed, or that the road is otherwise fit for travel by motor vehicles other than snowmobiles."

So will they consider the groomer to be a motor vehicle other than a snowmobile? By definition it's not classified as a snowmobile, so.......???

"snowmobile" means a vehicle other than an all-terrain vehicle or a motorcycle that

(a)

is designed for travel on snow or ice,

(b)

has one or more steering skis,

(c)

is self-propelled by means of one or more endless belts driven in contact with the ground, and

(d)

has a seat designed for the driver to sit astride.

If they call the groomer a motor vehicle other than a snowmobile, we wouldn't legally be allowed to ride a sled on a groomed trail on an FSR. This question has concerned me since the first insurance argument I had with compliance and enforcement. He tried to use the groomer as an "other vehicle" as an excuse for requiring liability till I pointed out the "must not operate" part.

Lund · Dec 13, 2018

Ok here more question's.

The Act say's unloading in a public parking lot by a FSR with out insurance is unlawful.

Is a staging area (parking) really considered a "public" parking lot?
Is it not a parking area for club members and paying customer's, which we are. Is it not maintained and put in by the club via club money, not public money. Would a family go park their mini van in a staging area?

Is a FSR considered a FSR when it is under significant amount of snow that a wheeled vehicle driven by the general public can no longer use it.
Is a groomed trail from a staging area still considered a FSR when it is put in by a tracked vehicle for tracked vehicles.

Is a sledding designated area such as Boulder Mtn (REVY club)still considered crown on its trail's as the club owns the tenure during the winter months and does all the trail maintenance. Is that not more considered private for its members and paying customer's?

I have a problem with any CO going on power trip's, i wore a uniform to at one time and there is a time where humility and good judgement is should take over.

Just asking

52weekbreak · Dec 13, 2018

I spent alot of time and research on this subject in Alberta about four years ago right up to meeting with the experts at Alberta Transportation the Solicitor General and I can tell you for certain that in Alberta the groomer is not considered a motor vehicle but a piece of equipment more like a Cat D6 or motor grader (also not a motor vehicle) because their primary function is work rather than transportation or pleasure.

Here is where one of the areas where Alberta rules are a little fuzzy: A Bobcat UTV counts as a piece of equipment as its primary purpose is to operate attachments so is considered mobile equipment and does not need to be licensed and registered. It falls into the same category as a motor grader. A John Deere Gator UTV however, even though it has available attachments, is considered to be in the same class as a sports SXS so needs to be licensed and registered as an ATV. We discussed at length the similarities and differences between the two machines and they made the decision that the Gator was less utility and more sport whereas the Bobcat was pretty much all utility and zero sport.

Not the decision I was hoping for as my client used Gators for their work and there was no pleasure use. Lost the argument and client is replacing with Bobcats as the Gators wear out.

The significance of this is not just licensing and registration but ultimately affects how it is insured. A Farm of commercial general liability extends to insure liability arising from the operation of equipment so if you have those, nothing else is required. The Gator though requires separate liability coverage under an automobile policy.

Anyway, the clubs groomer is considered a piece of equipment and does not require registration and is insured under the club's general liability policy. If some uninsured sled operator hit and damaged it, you would have to try to get the money from the operator. Good luck.

Hope this helps

moyiesledhead said:
That could actually be a dangerous question for us to ask because of the specific wording of the regulation.

"A person must not operate a snowmobile on a forest service road if it appears that the road has been snowplowed, or that the road is otherwise fit for travel by motor vehicles other than snowmobiles."

So will they consider the groomer to be a motor vehicle other than a snowmobile? By definition it's not classified as a snowmobile, so.......???

"snowmobile" means a vehicle other than an all-terrain vehicle or a motorcycle that

(a)
is designed for travel on snow or ice,

(b)
has one or more steering skis,

(c)
is self-propelled by means of one or more endless belts driven in contact with the ground, and

(d)
has a seat designed for the driver to sit astride.

If they call the groomer a motor vehicle other than a snowmobile, we wouldn't legally be allowed to ride a sled on a groomed trail on an FSR. This question has concerned me since the first insurance argument I had with compliance and enforcement.

Snowmobile insurance in BC

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