Has the time come for mandatory AST training and equipment?

First off, let me just say that my intent is not to disrespect the family of the recently deceased and all others involved..

In light of the recent tragedy in BC, details are some what limited as to what training and gear the group of riders had at the time of the incident.

I can't help but wonder, has the time come to begin making the successful completion of AST1 along with all avalanche gear mandatory when snowmobiling in the mountains?

Everyone that I ride with carries a beacon, probe, shovel and avalanche bag and has AST1 training. We have chosen to invest a great deal of money and time to become educated and informed to reduce the chances of being caught in an avalanche. While all of this is not 100% guaranteed to prevent a person from becoming another statistic, at least it gives all riders awareness and the equipment when riding in avalanche areas.

So much is invested at our work place to ensure employees are performing their jobs in a environment that is safe, will the same eventually apply for when we are at play?

If people are going to invest $12-20k for a new sled and outfit for the purpose of mountain riding, then it isn't unreasonable to spend an additional $1k-2k for proper avalanche training and gear so that all riders are properly trained if and when an avalanche occurs in the alpine.

Thoughts???

summitstef said:

First off, let me just say that my intent is not to disrespect the family of the recently deceased and all others involved..

In light of the recent tragedy in BC, details are some what limited as to what training and gear the group of riders had at the time of the incident.

I can't help but wonder, has the time come to begin making the successful completion of AST1 along with all avalanche gear mandatory when snowmobiling in the mountains?

Everyone that I ride with carries a beacon, probe, shovel and avalanche bag and has AST1 training. We have chosen to invest a great deal of money and time to become educated and informed to reduce the chances of being caught in an avalanche. While all of this is not 100% guaranteed to prevent a person from becoming another statistic, at least it gives all riders awareness and the equipment when riding in avalanche areas.

So much is invested at our work place to ensure employees are performing their jobs in a environment that is safe, I can't help but wonder if the same should apply for when we are at play?

If people are going to invest $12-20k for a new sled and outfit for the purpose of mountain riding, then it isn't unreasonable to spend an additional $1k-2k for proper avalanche training and gear so that all riders are properly trained if and when an avalanche occurs in the alpine.

Thoughts???

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The last thing we need is more regulations,
How would it be enforced to begin with.
Unfortunately bad stuff happens, All the people I know personally that have been involved in avalanches have been well trained and equipped, it still happened and sadly not all of them survived.

Well....I've never in my life been able to spend $12-20k on a sled, so maybe I can't relate to your thought. I do have avy training and gear. Having said that......NO to mandatory. We don't need more regulations that are impossible to police, and people have the right to be stupid in a free democratic society. A drinking and driving course isn't mandatory to go buy a bottle, and booze kills way more people than avalanches. Don't need a special license to buy cig's but......you get where I'm going with this.

Not only that, I'd bet the people involved already had training. Time may or may not tell us.

Absolutely...I've said for the past few years that a avy course should be mandatory to ride in the mountains. I found after I took my first course many years ago...that my awareness to snow conditions changed 100%
Your riding style goes from offence to defence automatically...and that's a good thing.

Mandatory training won't solve anything, we are all trained to drive cars and people die daily on the roads. In any extreme sport there are risks involved in the activity and we accept those risks. If the gov't gets a hold of this and becomes the regulatory body of who enters the backcountry based on gear and "training" the sport is doomed. It is up to us the users of the backcountry to educate ourselves on the area we are going to be experiencing, check weather/avy conditions before heading out and make good smart judgement calls. Know how to use the equipment to search for a buried individual (play with the beacons and know how to use them) and know how to use the probe.

Might as well make it mandatory for people that don't know how to swim to take swimming lessons, we do not need more regulations.

summitstef said:

First off, let me just say that my intent is not to disrespect the family of the recently deceased and all others involved..

In light of the recent tragedy in BC, details are some what limited as to what training and gear the group of riders had at the time of the incident.

I can't help but wonder, has the time come to begin making the successful completion of AST1 along with all avalanche gear mandatory when snowmobiling in the mountains?

Everyone that I ride with carries a beacon, probe, shovel and avalanche bag and has AST1 training. We have chosen to invest a great deal of money and time to become educated and informed to reduce the chances of being caught in an avalanche. While all of this is not 100% guaranteed to prevent a person from becoming another statistic, at least it gives all riders awareness and the equipment when riding in avalanche areas.

So much is invested at our work place to ensure employees are performing their jobs in a environment that is safe, I can't help but wonder if the same should apply for when we are at play?

If people are going to invest $12-20k for a new sled and outfit for the purpose of mountain riding, then it isn't unreasonable to spend an additional $1k-2k for proper avalanche training and gear so that all riders are properly trained if and when an avalanche occurs in the alpine.

Thoughts???

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Your post is all well intended, but a serious potential blow to mountain town winter economies. As they say, you can't fix stupid - and let nature take its' course (no matter how callus that sounds)! If you are going that route, you should exempt individuals from socialized medicine, or charge people the full cost of recovery and treatment for undertaking potentially life threatening activities if they become hurt too.

As good of an idea as it is it would not do any good. It is mandatory for people to have a drivers license but look how many bad drivers there. There is also boat license. They don't do any good when there not enforced and if they were to enforce it people are just going to find ways around it. Plan and simple.


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Nope, You cannot legislate the stupid out of people, helmet laws, seatbelt laws, and any other "if it just saves one life" the responsibility of government isnt to think for you. If you feel strongly about AST education then get it yourself and only ride with people who have it. Any time the government gets involved, we lose just a little bit more freedom.

I just took the AST 1 class for the second time and field for the first time this year and i would love for everyone to have it. I don't believe mandatory will work, but if everyone just stopped riding with untrained hazards then people would get the drift and go and get it. I personally will be making a big stink with the people i ride with to get this course otherwise moving forward i will avoid riding with them.

For all those who are not trained, you don't know how little you actually know and how your lack of understanding is not only risking your safe return but everyone who you ride with.

I have to admit i was a dumb ass for not getting my field course sooner, i thought i had it handled and knew enough after the classroom session. So glad im not that clueless guy anymore.

Sure right after they make it mandatory to get a licence and permit to have children...

.

Well, as you have read, this is a touchy subject, but I agree to some extent.....
I am heavily involved in the Revelstoke Snowmobile club and spend a lot of my time running the snowpatrol program here, and still can not believe how many groups of riders I encounter every day without even a backpack on, or my favourite(not) group of guys with full Avy packs riding with their significant other who has nothing, maybe there is another plan there.?
The message is not getting through, and until you spend your nights and days looking for 'practically pro' riders who are so unprepared maybe you don't get it. The gear that you carry is for so much more than just Avalanches and some guys just aren't getting the message. Now I will say that a good percentage of people that I encounter are receptive to talking and learning, I am also told to go F myself daily that they are not riding in Avy zones or they are great riders who don't go in dangerous terrain?
The gear in my bag is invaluable to me, my shovel, well first off is the obvious, dig out my machine, yup I get stuck.....you? But the handle is a makeshift splint or pole for my tarp, same as my probe, many other uses, the bivy sack and extra warm gear may save me or someone else's loved one, I could go on but many posts about what's on my back and on my sled.
So what these course do is raise awareness to the backcountry, which is my thoughts.

so, here is a thought that someone else presented to me that I have thought about a lot, is it perfect? No, and will guys rip me, I don't care or I would not spend a great majority of my valuable spare time volunteering to get love ones home.
make a course, basic backcountry safety of some kind and if you don't have it.....you pay for your rescue. I don't care if you are snowshoeing, XC skiing or mushroom picking. Don't get me wrong I want everyone to experience the mountains, but these mountains that give us life, they take it as well, and they do it honestly and don't care who you are. Sure people with drivers licenses crash, but how many more would crash without a license?

I don't have the answer but something has to change....and not just with Avalanches but with basic backcountry use.

Before you you rip into me, why not go volunteer some of your precious free time and get back to me.

ride and be safe, somewhere someone loves you and wants you to come home.

Kaz Dog said:

, or charge people the full cost of recovery and treatment for undertaking potentially life threatening activities if they become hurt too.

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I do think a cost recovery should happen.

Extreme activities like mountain sledding have risks. When an incident happens it costs thousands for recovery and also risk to the people doing recovery and search.

Insurance plans on the sled and rider would be a good idea.



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Double trail fees if you can't produce an AST1 proof and proper gear. Most of all, peer pressure. Simply don't allow anyone in your group without training and gear. No exceptions.

MANDITORY always follows many avoidable (based on studies) incidents.
See thread on "helmet laws".
Many of these incidents happen with or by people who claim to know what safety is.
MANDATORY....if we keep having incidents it will happen.


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How often would you want people to take a "refresher" course, who is going to teach all these courses ( at a guess there isn't enough snow days in a winter for every sledder to get certified).
I am licensed to drive commercial vehicles but haven't driven one in over 30 years, would I be safe on the road (doubt it ). Avy course would be the same.

catinthehat said:

How often would you want people to take a "refresher" course, who is going to teach all these courses ( at a guess there isn't enough snow days in a winter for every sledder to get certified).
I am licensed to drive commercial vehicles but haven't driven one in over 30 years, would I be safe on the road (doubt it ). Avy course would be the same.

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Even taking a course on how to survive and what essential items to pack would help. Sometimes a little spark is all it takes for people to realize how unprepared they are and want to learn more.
Yes you are right, never going to be the ' magic' solution but do you not agree something needs to change? If you don't think so I welcome you next time you are in town to join along for a day ( your day off that you work hard for) and see what is actually going on.
Do I have all the answers, absolutely not, but starting a conversation to get our peeps home, whether it's an Avy or just a poor decision making should be all of our goals.

Side note, in BC you must get a medical every so often to maintain a commercial license, so I guess you would at least of had that? If you can't shift that's your issue, if you can't see or have a bad heart, that's a different story, it mandatory.

I took my AST1 mid December and I instantly changed my riding habits. I also took more notice of the people around me and what type of gear they were using. I'll also be tailoring my rides to more accommodate those that I ride with and their levels of experience. For example, I just got back from the mountains and my riding partner is new to the sport so we just stuck to low avalanche areas and avoided exposing ourselves. Once the weather turned to ****, and visibility took a nose dive, we headed back down the parking lot and called it a day.

That being said, I think everybody should invest in an avalanche course and I'll tell everybody I come across to get one, but I don't think it should be mandatory. I just think you need to be extra cautious about the other people around you and the danger they can pose.

I am also planning on getting my AST2 next year.

RevyG said:

Even taking a course on how to survive and what essential items to pack would help. Sometimes a little spark is all it takes for people to realize how unprepared they are and want to learn more.
Yes you are right, never going to be the ' magic' solution but do you not agree something needs to change? If you don't think so I welcome you next time you are in town to join along for a day ( your day off that you work hard for) and see what is actually going on.
Do I have all the answers, absolutely not, but starting a conversation to get our peeps home, whether it's an Avy or just a poor decision making should be all of our goals.

Side note, in BC you must get a medical every so often to maintain a commercial license, so I guess you would at least of had that? If you can't shift that's your issue, if you can't see or have a bad heart, that's a different story, it mandatory.

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I agree that everybody would gain from any education, my reference was that after a period of time without actively using any skills they should be renewed/refreshed so that you are adequately able to use them.
I also thank you and all others for your time on SAR.

Regulate sledding and I quit. Going into one area with 500 guys isn't for me. A monitored zone complete with out of bounds signs where it might be tricky isn't sledding. I ride to be free and explore the beautiful country I was born in. This is a sport that will not last. To many couch riders judging "thrill seekers" will bring regulation.