Has the time come for mandatory AST training and equipment?

RevyG · Jan 2, 2017

This is a sport that will not last. To many couch riders judging "thrill seekers" will bring regulation.

nope it will not, to bad a lot of the "thrill seekers" don't have the skill, to seek the thrill, they desire

also I was referring to ALL persons accessing the back country, not just sledders.

driller · Jan 2, 2017

I sure like RevG thoughts on a back country coarse that makes you think of the terrain you are in and can you survive a night or two with some avy training included. Some excellent points made by him there on the preparedness of people going in the back country.
i have taken the ast 1 coarse and yes I am better for it but out of the hundreds of groups out last weekend how many test holes were dug? If there were and the results were high probability of fracture did they ride accordingly? Just a question
not an accusation.
Not many heli skiers are caught in avalanches what are they doing that the sledding community is not?
Training is good but will never fix the problem of adrenaline and the excitement of risk
As was mentioned earlier most of the recent Avalanche deaths(3-4 yrs). The guys were trained had all the up to date gear and still were sadly caught in bad situation that cost them everything.
What may happen is more pressure or power will be given to Avalanche Canada and when the risk is at too high of a level some of the back country may be closed. As in the recent tragidy one day after the accident the whole area is wide open again which is great but has the snow pack and the risk in that area changed? Is there a lot of safe areas to ride there YES. Are there some hills that may slide yet yes.
DO NOT want to see that happen but they can close a major highway because of Avalanche or road conditions, close millions of acres for Mountain Caribou protection.
A big thanks to those that are involved in SAR and deal with the situations that you do

PowderHunter · Jan 2, 2017

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think part of the reason we don't hear about other backcountry users being caught in avalanches has to do a lot with media coverage. It could be happening, but we just don't hear about it nearly as often. Another part of the equation of why more slenders are caught is because we can get around much more easily and much faster. Also, a lot of avalanches are caused by people who make the same mistakes over and over again.

I bought a book when I was at the AST1 classroom course which details tons of avalanches caused over the years and all the mistakes people made to cause them. Can't remember what it's called, but it certainly opens your eyes and I would recommend that everybody gives it a read.

ferniesnow · Jan 3, 2017

It is a good discussion. It is a dilemma and a Catch22. The volunteers that are in the field are already stretched, the paid government workers (enforcers so to speak) that are in the filed are already stretched, and we hear over and over again about the riders complaining about cost/expenses.

In their infinite wisdom, the Government of BC recently put in the OHV law for a myriad of reasons. Does the government have enough resources allocated for enforcement of this set of rules. Absolutely not! If there were mandatory rules for sledders, who would enforce them? Surely, one wouldn't be asking the volunteers at the staging areas as they already get too much chit just for collecting a fee. CO's haven't got the time. RCMP haven't got the time. Further with the enforcement, if the avalanche risk is extreme, someone mentioned the back-country should be closed. Who would enforce that and what about the back-country that isn't an avalanche hazard?

I totally understand where RevyG is coming from and shake my head everyday that I am out riding. I used to try and talk to peeps that I saw doing stupid things (climbing unsafe chutes or playing under the chutes in the untracked powder). A person can only accept being told to f..k off so many times and realize that stupid is very hard to fix.

The one thing that I think is worth exploring is paying something for S&R. That in itself might inject a sense of responsibility into those who are unprepared.

rzrgade · Jan 3, 2017

The days of some sort of risk insurance are not far off.....I would imagine.

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Bnorth · Jan 3, 2017

ferniesnow said:
It is a good discussion. It is a dilemma and a Catch22. The volunteers that are in the field are already stretched, the paid government workers (enforcers so to speak) that are in the filed are already stretched, and we hear over and over again about the riders complaining about cost/expenses.

In their infinite wisdom, the Government of BC recently put in the OHV law for a myriad of reasons. Does the government have enough resources allocated for enforcement of this set of rules. Absolutely not! If there were mandatory rules for sledders, who would enforce them? Surely, one wouldn't be asking the volunteers at the staging areas as they already get too much chit just for collecting a fee. CO's haven't got the time. RCMP haven't got the time. Further with the enforcement, if the avalanche risk is extreme, someone mentioned the back-country should be closed. Who would enforce that and what about the back-country that isn't an avalanche hazard?

I totally understand where RevyG is coming from and shake my head everyday that I am out riding. I used to try and talk to peeps that I saw doing stupid things (climbing unsafe chutes or playing under the chutes in the untracked powder). A person can only accept being told to f..k off so many times and realize that stupid is very hard to fix.

The one thing that I think is worth exploring is paying something for S&R. That in itself might inject a sense of responsibility into those who are unprepared.

As a SAR member I will never support a pay for service system. We already find that callouts often happen later than is ideal and make our job a lot more difficult be it an exponentially larger search area or now an operation after dark. I think adding a pay system will deter people even further from seeking assistance not only making the tasks more difficult but with fewer successful rescues.

Note: this represents my personal opinion.

rzrgade · Jan 3, 2017

There are many ways of Channeling the funds from an insurance (bond ?) to help fund SAR expenses & and better equip them I would guess .
What are your thoughts on that as a SAR member?
I have family and friends well up in SAR , they all agree this is a viable option & are constantly under funded, it appears.

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Bnorth · Jan 3, 2017

rzrgade said:
There are many ways of Channeling the funds from an insurance (bond ?) to help fund SAR expenses & and better equip them I would guess .
What are your thoughts on that as a SAR member?
I have family and friends well up in SAR , they all agree this is a viable option & are constantly under funded, it appears.

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More funding for improved training and equipment is always helpful however I feel that the service should be available to everyone just as ambulance, fire, or policing is. If you add a mandatory bond or insurance to the sport it's just adding red tape, regulation and cost as well as making it a premium service. SAR is not a huge cost to Gov't as far as first responders go since it is all volunteer time and I don't see the benefit in downloading the cost to the users.

ferniesnow · Jan 3, 2017

Bnorth said:
As a SAR member I will never support a pay for service system. We already find that callouts often happen later than is ideal and make our job a lot more difficult be it an exponentially larger search area or now an operation after dark. I think adding a pay system will deter people even further from seeking assistance not only making the tasks more difficult but with fewer successful rescues.

Note: this represents my personal opinion.

Just joking but maybe this would strengthen the pool? Make back-country users make better decisions if they were looking at a bill? Slowly get rid of the "entitled"?

We already pay for ambulance transport so why not S&R. Like I implied, paying for S&R is worth exploring and a very long discussion.

RevyG · Jan 3, 2017

Some great points all around. In my original post, I guess I wasn't clear, the suggestion brought to me was for ALL backcountry users, a basic survival course, no course, you pay.
Like Doug said, we already pay for ambulance service.

iceman5689 · Jan 3, 2017

You can have all available resources but still cannot tame mother nature. The only way this may be controlled and will never happen because of cost, would be avalanche control. Aerial/ground avalanche control in our sledding areas again will never happen, proving them safe prior for public use. (cost over life yet again).Protecting maybe those less educated in snowpack.

catinthehat · Jan 3, 2017

RevyG said:
Some great points all around. In my original post, I guess I wasn't clear, the suggestion brought to me was for ALL backcountry users, a basic survival course, no course, you pay.
Like Doug said, we already pay for ambulance service.

Again, who would be able to teach these courses to the literally millions of backcountry users. I agree an insurance would be the way to go, if it was offered at say 50 bucks a year to help pay for any rescue costs I believe enough people would take part that SAR could be fully funded provincewide. Without insurance a flat fee would be assessed for rescues. Just a thought.

RevyG · Jan 3, 2017

Again, I bet you would have a lot of guys lined up to teach and with activities taking place in different seasons would spread it out. I never said it was perfect, just a thought. Your idea is a good one as well.

I just agree with original post, something has to change, I thought about it when the two fellows went snowshoeing on Christmas in Van and have still not been found. sad

no system will be the complete answer, just like some guys don't pay trail fees/buy membership because they are too awesome. But ever time SAR isn't called out is a win.

pipes · Jan 3, 2017

RevyG said:
Again, I bet you would have a lot of guys lined up to teach and with activities taking place in different seasons would spread it out. I never said it was perfect, just a thought. Your idea is a good one as well.

I just agree with original post, something has to change, I thought about it when the two fellows went snowshoeing on Christmas in Van and have still not been found. sad

no system will be the complete answer, just like some guys don't pay trail fees/buy membership because they are too awesome. But every time SAR isn't called out is a win.

I agree with you for the most part. Specially your last sentence, oh BTW I fixed it for you. SAR Should mean Sit And Relax. Too bad it means Search and Rescue

stuckenough · Jan 6, 2017

driller said:
I sure like RevG thoughts on a back country coarse that makes you think of the terrain you are in and can you survive a night or two with some avy training included. Some excellent points made by him there on the preparedness of people going in the back country.
i have taken the ast 1 coarse and yes I am better for it but out of the hundreds of groups out last weekend how many test holes were dug? If there were and the results were high probability of fracture did they ride accordingly? Just a question
not an accusation.
Not many heli skiers are caught in avalanches what are they doing that the sledding community is not?
Training is good but will never fix the problem of adrenaline and the excitement of risk
As was mentioned earlier most of the recent Avalanche deaths(3-4 yrs). The guys were trained had all the up to date gear and still were sadly caught in bad situation that cost them everything.
What may happen is more pressure or power will be given to Avalanche Canada and when the risk is at too high of a level some of the back country may be closed. As in the recent tragidy one day after the accident the whole area is wide open again which is great but has the snow pack and the risk in that area changed? Is there a lot of safe areas to ride there YES. Are there some hills that may slide yet yes.
DO NOT want to see that happen but they can close a major highway because of Avalanche or road conditions, close millions of acres for Mountain Caribou protection.
A big thanks to those that are involved in SAR and deal with the situations that you do

What the backcountry heli-skiers are doing is going up with people who are TRAINED to recognize hazards. I can't be certain of this but I'm nearly 100% sure that this training would be regulated by the gov't in some way.
Ive noticed quite a few comments about how guys will "quit" riding if they have to take a course. But the reality is...a few more unnecessary deaths in the mountains...and from what I have read this last one was preventable, and there will be no more riding in the mountains. As far as all of these cliches' about how licence drivers are still involved in accidents! Could you imagine for a moment driving on our roads if there were no regulations what so ever...think about it!
I hate the governments involvement in my **** constantly...but sometimes it's a necessary evil.
ive been riding the mountains for close to 30 years and took my first avy course when they started offering them. I was amazed at how little I really knew and just how many risks I've taken through out the years. Man...I thought I knew it all...nothing you could teach me. Wow...was I wrong! I'm always surprised now when I go riding and see these guys and gals all poking away on risky slopes with all of the "buds" parked at the base watching. Try going up to some of these "pro" riders and point out the hazard they're in. They look at you like you're an idiot...I've seen the look of a guy that just got dug out from an avalanche...it's a different look all together!

SUMMIT TREE · Jan 9, 2017

To a previous post the book you are probably referring to is called "staying alive in avalanche terrain " by Bruce Tremper
If you give two craps about staying alive out there you really should read this book.

To the OP, mandatory training just isn't feasible. Lots of things are illegal and that stuff goes on regardless, and ALOT more people die because of those things. Short of closing the entire backcountry (I have no idea how that would happen), it isn't gonna change either, avalanches are going to keep killing the ignorant, the un educated, the clueless, and the knows enough to be dangerous.I think you could literally offer avy training free of charge, and there would still be people who would have no interest in taking it. Think about it, when was the last time you seen any body do a "real" beacon function test before leaving the truck?( if you don't know how, you should really learn, and I don't mean go up to that red/green beacon checker either)
Have you even seen people actually simulate a real beacon search for practice?(if you watch from a distance while your buddy walks toward the signal, you can actually see the lines of flux, as they travel in an arc toward the buried beacon) My point is your only gonna do it if you want to, plain and simple, illegal or mandatory or whatever

Turbofly · Jan 9, 2017

A whole bunch of good ideas here. I believe there wouldn't be many who have taken an Avy course that could honestly say that they didn't learn anything and they knew it all. So if you think that courses and or govt intervention is expensive, an invasion of freedom, time consuming, a pain in the a$$, etc etc then why don't we all just try IGNORANCE and see how far that gets us. Talk about paying the ultimate price. I'm not sure what the answer is but I think everyone should have some form of training. It's about being accountable for yourself and the riding community to know what to do in an emergency with proficiency. Having said all that I do realize that accidents do happen and there are inherent risks to the sport.

Has the time come for mandatory AST training and equipment?

RevyG

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driller

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PowderHunter

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ferniesnow

I'm doo-ing it!

rzrgade

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Bnorth

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rzrgade

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Bnorth

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ferniesnow

I'm doo-ing it!

RevyG

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iceman5689

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catinthehat

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RevyG

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pipes

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stuckenough

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SUMMIT TREE

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Turbofly

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